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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:19 am 
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Amaranth wrote:
I pretty much agree with all that's already been said, and I always assumed his first name was Jonathon

I also think Ichabod took Masbath on because he could see that the kid would be less likely to question and challenge Ichabod's methods of investigation than any other helpers he might've found. :-|


Amaranth, that's an interesting idea, that because of his age Masbath would be less likely to question Ichabod's new, scientific investigative techniques. As a young person without much knowledge of "how things were usually done," he wouldn't prejudge Ichabod's methods. How many murders would have happened in that tiny village during young Masbath's lifetime, before the horseman started wiping out the populace? Probably none.

Also, as many others have mentioned, Masbath very much wants justice for his dead father and so has a strong motivation to support anyone who is trying to solve the crime. At the point that he joins Ichabod as an assistant, none of the town fathers had lost a close relative, had they? Just acquaintances or distant family members--the Van Garretts (father and son), the Widow Winship and her baby, and Jonathan Masbath. The Van Tassels' connection to the Van Garrett family is the only blood link we know about, and that wasn't close enough for Baltus Van Tassel to mention it to Ichabod when he arrived; when Ichabod finds out the two families are related, he is surprised.

But when you refer to "any other helpers he might have found," we know that it's a good thing Ichabod changed his mind about Masbath, because the boy is the only honest helper he's likely to have found in Sleepy Hollow. I think the only adult males we meet in the village who aren't hiding guilty knowledge are the midwife's husband and Brom Van Brunt, and both of them will be killed by the horseman.

One of my favorite scenes with young Masbath is when Ichabod recovers from the shock of seeing the horseman, and comes down the stairs asking for brave men to accompany him to the Western Woods. "Who's with me?" Ichabod asks, and the only one to raise his hand to go along is Masbath. That's funny, but it's also very revealing of Masbath's grit and loyalty. Masbath stands by the people he cares about and believes in--not just Ichabod but also Katrina. He's a good judge of character.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:42 am 
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part-time poet wrote:
Amaranth wrote:
I pretty much agree with all that's already been said, and I always assumed his first name was Jonathon

I also think Ichabod took Masbath on because he could see that the kid would be less likely to question and challenge Ichabod's methods of investigation than any other helpers he might've found. :-|


Amaranth, that's an interesting idea, that because of his age Masbath would be less likely to question Ichabod's new, scientific investigative techniques. As a young person without much knowledge of "how things were usually done," he wouldn't prejudge Ichabod's methods. How many murders would have happened in that tiny village during young Masbath's lifetime, before the horseman started wiping out the populace? Probably none.

Also, as many others have mentioned, Masbath very much wants justice for his dead father and so has a strong motivation to support anyone who is trying to solve the crime. At the point that he joins Ichabod as an assistant, none of the town fathers had lost a close relative, had they? Just acquaintances or distant family members--the Van Garretts (father and son), the Widow Winship and her baby, and Jonathan Masbath. The Van Tassels' connection to the Van Garrett family is the only blood link we know about, and that wasn't close enough for Baltus Van Tassel to mention it to Ichabod when he arrived; when Ichabod finds out the two families are related, he is surprised.

But when you refer to "any other helpers he might have found," we know that it's a good thing Ichabod changed his mind about Masbath, because the boy is the only honest helper he's likely to have found in Sleepy Hollow. I think the only adult males we meet in the village who aren't hiding guilty knowledge are the midwife's husband and Brom Van Brunt, and both of them will be killed by the horseman.

One of my favorite scenes with young Masbath is when Ichabod recovers from the shock of seeing the horseman, and comes down the stairs asking for brave men to accompany him to the Western Woods. "Who's with me?" Ichabod asks, and the only one to raise his hand to go along is Masbath. That's funny, but it's also very revealing of Masbath's grit and loyalty. Masbath stands by the people he cares about and believes in--not just Ichabod but also Katrina. He's a good judge of character.

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I totally agree with you. :cool:
That's veeeeeeeery interesting!



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:48 am 
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Dawn68PA wrote:
When young Masbath offers to become Ichabod's servant or apprentice ("I am your man, sir"), at first Ichabod says no. Why does Ichabod change his mind?

I think also that Ichabod realizes he'll need an assistant. I don't know if he feels bad for Masbeth or at least bad enough to take responsibility for him. If he did, he wouldn't have left Masbeth behind the first time he went to leave Sleepy Hollow.

[/color]



I also thought this way about that question.
If Ichabod really had condolence with young Masbeth, he wouldn't have left him behind when leaving Sleepy Hollow.



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:56 am 
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Concerning the relationship between him and Ichabod and what it brings to the movie:

I think yound masbeth is insofar important, as he is/ provides that:

4. the one who advises Ichabod of the fact that he isn't dead after Lady Van Tassel has shot at him. :biglaugh: (the final scene with the horseman in the Western Woods). :lol:



Oh, I like the idea of young Masbeth being christened after his father. :cool:



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:20 pm 
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How would SLEEPY HOLLOW change if the writers had not included the character of young Masbath? What does his relationship with Ichabod bring to the movie? He was there more to ad depth to the Ichabod character someone to play off of I wonder if he was added after the fact of the Christina Ricci casting??? I truly gives Ichabod something to play off of (similar to a Holmes and Watson)


When young Masbath offers to become Ichabod's servant or apprentice ("I am your man, sir"), at first Ichabod says no. Why does Ichabod change his mind?
pitty, desperation, need

Silly question--does young Masbath have a first name? Would you like to suggest one?
Peter



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:32 am 
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I think he turns Masbath down at first because essentially he is a loner, and not used to working with others. He sees Masbath as being a drain on him and he doesn't want the responsibility. His change of mind is part of his development, of becoming part of a unit. I'm not sure why he changes his mind. Yes he is squeamish, but not to the point of preventing him from carrying out an autopsy on the widow. Perhaps it is just the extra manpower needed, and the fact that as the grieving rleative, he wants Masbath on side. Masbath is needed as a detective story convention, the sidekick that makes Ichabod's thinking clear to the audience. But it seems that Ichabod's instincts are true, when he lets them be. He chooses the right man for the job. As for their relationship, I like the irony of Ichabod telling Masbath that he can't look after him. It is the other way around quite often. For example, Masbath's reassurance with the spider, and trying to talk some sense into Ichabod: telling him he is bewitched by reason. I don't really see him as a child. He isn't young Masbath anymore, just Masbath. And I would have to call him William, being as how he is such a good strong character. I like his steadiness. He is a good counterpoint to Ichabod.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:18 pm 
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suec wrote:
I think he turns Masbath down at first because essentially he is a loner, and not used to working with others. He sees Masbath as being a drain on him and he doesn't want the responsibility. His change of mind is part of his development, of becoming part of a unit.


I think that's a very interesting point, suec. You can see Ichabod growing during the course of that scene. At first he has conventional feelings of sympathy for young Masbath, but he also views him partially as an impediment on the road to him getting about his business and solving the case--the whole "I don't have time to look after you" part.

But Ichabod also becomes aware of what young Masbath's lot in life will be from now on--with his mother also "in heaven," the young man has no home and doesn't know where his next meal is coming from. Ichabod realizes how much it would mean to Masbath to have a purpose in life--to be "his man" for the duration of the investigation and help him solve the case and find his father's murderer.

Ichabod never had justice for his mother, but he could give young Masbath justice for his father. Reaching out and taking that step helps the boy, but it helps Ichabod, too. Your observation that this helps Ichabod develop as a human being is exactly right.

We all know how squeamish Ichabod is and how he hides behind Masbath and Katrina at times. And yet when Katrina and Masbath are threatened by the horseman--who is "already dead" and can't be killed--Ichabod gets up on top of that carriage and is prepared to sacrifice himself just to try to buy time for Katrina and Masbath. He must know rationally that he's no match for the Horseman, and if he gets in the way, he'll meet the same fate as Brom. And yet he must try to protect the people he loves. What's different about Ichabod by that point?

He has people he loves. Before he came to Sleepy Hollow, that wasn't true. He was all alone. By the time he battles the horseman, he has people he cares about and feels responsible for.

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