Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

by Daniel Depp

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Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby Liz » Thu May 14, 2009 10:17 am

Pg. 285: “Locatelli gave him a gentle pat on the shoulder then turned and went back into the restaurant. Spandau had forgotten where the taxi stand was in this part of the world. While he was walking around looking for one, he had ample time to think. It was over now. Richie Stella had been brought down and Bobby Dye was free. Mission accomplished. Except three people were dead—four if you counted that poor stupid girl who started it all. Four people dead but you couldn’t exactly call any of them innocent. Innocence is an overrated quality, Spandau decided. Innocence got people into trouble. Innocence got them killed. Look at me.”

Comment in reference to the book and in regard to real life.
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby Betty Sue » Thu May 14, 2009 12:06 pm

Liz wrote: Innocence is an overrated quality, Spandau decided. Innocence got people into trouble. Innocence got them killed. Look at me.”

Daniel really got to me with those words, especially, "Look at me." Spandau had done everything he could to resolve a problem. He was smart, supportive, loyal and courageous. And, as he said, his mission was actually accomplished and he was not killed, he was left standing. However, he felt dead. He felt responsible. I guess he felt that in his innocence he had underestimated the monsters in this drama.
Read this question to Mr. Betty Sue, and the first thing he did was point out how innocence had led me into trouble....more than once! :yikes: But we won't go into that! :baby:
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby Liz » Thu May 14, 2009 4:03 pm

Thanks for starting us off, Betty Sue. And I won’t ask you what Mr. Betty Sue was referring to. But I'm sure the same could be said about me. ;-)

My heart just sunk, when Spandau said, “look at me”. I felt so bad for him. He really took it hard. I think he blamed himself for the outcome….especially for Terry. But I think Terry was a tad innocent himself to think that he would be able to take care of Richie and “save Allison”. I think this goes back to the discussion we had about dreams…..where you can let your dreams blind you to the reality of the situation.
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby Betty Sue » Thu May 14, 2009 4:09 pm

Yes, Liz, I definitely thought there was some innocence in Terry, and Allison, too. Squiers and the young girl....I don't know.
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby deppaura » Thu May 14, 2009 4:33 pm

o.k..I'm having trouble with this passage. Why do I find it in conflict? "Four people dead but you couldn't exactly call any of them innocent."..Then, "Innocence got them killed." Huh?? Is he playing with the word? They weren't innocent, but, they were innocent? Or was his mind exploring he notion of innocence? Innocence or naivete? Sorry, maybe this just doesn't work for me. The thing about Terry, I think, was the unfortunate video of him in that trailer. I wonder how successful he might have been if not for that? I guess I just don't understand "innocence" here. Somehow innocence connotes pureness. Feel free to point out the error of my judgment. Has innocence affected my life? At this point, probably not. For me it can be either being too naive or gullible.

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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby Betty Sue » Thu May 14, 2009 5:36 pm

I had the same problem with that, deppaura, and think he was exploring the notion. One interpretation I thought of was that, at first, he was implying that their deaths were due to their lack of innocence...almost as if they deserved it. Then he concluded that innocence, his innocence, actually had been more responsible for their deaths than their indiscretions.
And, like you, I pretty much thought of innocence as naivete...at least, in regard to Spandau...and to me.
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby gemini » Thu May 14, 2009 6:59 pm

Yes I agree this paragraph is a little tricky. At first glance I also took offence at his remark that none of the dead were innocent. Even if they weren't saints they didn't do anything to deserve death so to me they were innocent. I did think he meant his own innocence caused their death and that had he been more on his toes he could have changed the outcome. I think he felt bad for calling Terry into the investigation. When he said "Innocence is an overrated quality", I was convinced he meant that he was at fault even though he was found innocent after the police investigation of the deaths. He was wondering....Yes mission accomplished, but was it worth it?
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby deppaura » Thu May 14, 2009 9:45 pm

Thanks for the input, Betty Sue and Gemini. It is helping to explain Daniel's intention, though I still feel a little rocky. I guess it was sort of a mea culpa moment for Spandau, putting the onus of everything on his own back?

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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby DeppInTheHeartOfTexas » Fri May 15, 2009 10:07 am

Great discussion on this question. I too first took offense at Spandau's remarks and had the feeling they deserved to die because they weren't innocent and knew what the danger of what they were getting into. However I do see the last part as a mea culpa on Spandau's part. He accomplished his job but because he did his job, four people were dead. It is a tricky paragraph.
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby Liz » Fri May 15, 2009 1:35 pm

Yes, it is a very interesting discussion, DITHOT. And I have to agree with Deppaura, that naïveté would probably have been a better choice of words. I think, though, for me, it points out that Spandau feels things quite deeply. And it could go back to his problems with Dee. She couldn’t understand how he could pretend to be a friend to someone and then rat on him. But he saw it as “a job” and what the guy deserved. I think at this moment in the book he is beginning to rethink his attitude about “his job”. He’s lost so many things because of it. And that raises a question for me…….How will this affect his adventures in future books?
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby ladylinn » Sat May 16, 2009 11:57 am

Coming in late on this discussion - but the word innocent for me has always meant pure and free from wrong. Can anyone pass this test honestly? I don't feel the deaths of the 4 -Terry, Allison, Ritchie and the girl were by their innocence. They had to be aware of their positions and situations. Spandau took their deaths upon his conscience and was dealing with guilt. He cannot bear the weight of others - just his own. As was said - "mission acomplished". In his line of work (and life with Dee) - he must move forward and perhaps learn from the past. In real life that is all any of us can do.

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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby Liz » Sat May 16, 2009 12:32 pm

ladylinn wrote: In his line of work (and life with Dee) - he must move forward and perhaps learn from the past. In real life that is all any of us can do.

I think he may have gone a bit far with that, although I think it is human nature to do so. Poor Spandau had a lot to mourn at the end of the story. I hope he responds to it in a healthy way in the next book.
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Re: Loser's Town Question #30 ~ Innocence

Unread postby deppaura » Sat May 16, 2009 1:01 pm

Liz wrote:And it could go back to his problems with Dee. She couldn’t understand how he could pretend to be a friend to someone and then rat on him. But he saw it as “a job” and what the guy deserved. I think at this moment in the book he is beginning to rethink his attitude about “his job”. He’s lost so many things because of it. And that raises a question for me…….How will this affect his adventures in future books?

This came up for me too, in reviewing the previous passages. I think he was summarizing the events and in doing so, reflected on the idea of innocence. His mind poetically took off with the notion of innocence and the resolution of how it impacted him. Where he fit in with the concept of innocence Don't want to beat a dead horse, though!


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