TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

by Arturo Perez-Reverte

Moderator: Liz

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Liz » Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:51 pm

Great Answers!

I think the reason for the luminous green eyes is to cause us to wonder if she is the devil. I’m not sure if that means she is or not or he did it just to get us off the track. I think he used green as opposed to yellow because yellow is too obvious. There were plenty of clues leading us to believe she was the devil—much of which were all on one page:

• He asked who she was and she responded, “The devil,” “The devil in love”.

• She asks Corso if he believes in the devil.

• She talks about The Memoirs of St. Helena: “She admires in Alvaro the same things the devil admires in mankind: his courage, his independence..”

• Corso asks her “what she knows of all this (referring to what the devil admires, etc.), and she responds with “Much more than you imagine.”

She also unexplainably knows things. And then she sits around as an observer, almost mockingly, watching Corso struggling to find out how everything is connected. If she is not the devil, she knows him quite well. But for P-R, it seems too obvious.


Just a note….

We will be comparing the movie with the book and discussing whether we liked the book/and or movie and which one more later on (two different questions).
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
Endora
Posts: 16341
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:03 pm
Location: Darkest UK~ Down in Albion

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Endora » Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:07 pm

Anna, I re-read it this week and I liked it more this time, because I was less distracted by the various plots. Maybe you should give it a try?

I will definaelty give the film another viewing soon though in the light of future questions.

Liz: have you read the Northern Lights trilogy? The view of the fallen angel has a lot of parallels there.
Work hard, learn well, and make peace with the fact that you'll never be as cool as Johnny Depp. GQ.

Solace in the flood

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Liz » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:08 pm

Endora wrote:Liz: have you read the Northern Lights trilogy? The view of the fallen angel has a lot of parallels there.

No I have not. Would you be willing summarize them here?


(having technical issues here--hope I don't lose what I typed this time) :hope:
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
Parlez
Posts: 2503
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 am
Location: Colorado

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Parlez » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:13 pm

Okay, see, I took that first line ('I'm the devil. The devil in love.') to mean she was saying she wasn't the devil; not the real devil anyway. I mean, can the real devil be capable of love? I always thought the devil, with his or her penchant for pure evil, was the antithesis of love. In fact, I always thought love was the only way to best the devil. And then, when she answers Corso's question about being familiar with the devil ('Much more than you imagine.'), I thought: well, of course she'd know her arch enemy very well. But perhaps I'm putting too fine a point on these things...I'm prone to doing that now and then. :lol: (the devil is in the details)

And, Anna, I couldn't agree with you more about the book! It is pretty horrible, even the second time around. I was just making a comparison between the character of Green Eyes in the movie and The Girl (Irene Adler) in the book. To me, she was more ambiguous and mysterious in the book; in the movie she came across as more obvious and a little one-dimensional. IMO!
Last edited by Parlez on Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa
savvy avi by mamabear

User avatar
nebraska
Posts: 28236
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:15 pm
Location: near Omaha

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby nebraska » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:19 pm

Liz wrote:[liz]

Just a note….

We will be comparing the movie with the book and discussing whether we liked the book/and or movie and which one more later on (two different questions).



I am trying to wait until the very last minute before I watch the movie again; once I do that, the book will be lost in a hopeless jumble and quite honestly, most of this discussion has already been over my head. :dunce:

User avatar
Anna
Posts: 5493
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:59 am
Location: The Netherlands

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Anna » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:20 pm

Parlez wrote:And, Anna, I couldn't agree with you more about the book! It is pretty horrible, even the second time around. I was just making a comparison between the character of Green Eyes in the movie and The Girl (Irene Adler) in the book. To me, she was more ambiguous and mysterious in the book; in the movie she came across as more obvious and a little one-dimensional. IMO!


:highfive:
One minute I’m mushing along with the huskies as usual, and all of a sudden it’s global warming.

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Liz » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:25 pm

Parlez wrote:Okay, see, I took that first line ('I'm the devil. The devil in love.') to mean she was saying she wasn't the devil; not the real devil anyway. I mean, can the real devil be capable of love? I always thought the devil, with his or her penchant for pure evil, was the antithesis of love. In fact, I always thought love was the only way to best the devil.

Parlez, I guess it depends on your point of view. In Ch. XI Frieda Ungern claims that “Lucifer, champion of freedom, suffers from love of mankind. And he provides mankind with knowledge through sacrifice, thus damning himself.” That didn’t make sense to me; but I guess in some circles, it is believed that Satan has the capability to love. And it appears that it is not beyond belief for P-R.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Liz » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:28 pm

nebraska wrote:
Liz wrote:Just a note….

We will be comparing the movie with the book and discussing whether we liked the book/and or movie and which one more later on (two different questions).



I am trying to wait until the very last minute before I watch the movie again; once I do that, the book will be lost in a hopeless jumble and quite honestly, most of this discussion has already been over my head. :dunce:

Just a heads up that the question on that will be asked this coming Friday.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
Parlez
Posts: 2503
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 am
Location: Colorado

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Parlez » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:40 am

Liz wrote:
Parlez wrote:Okay, see, I took that first line ('I'm the devil. The devil in love.') to mean she was saying she wasn't the devil; not the real devil anyway. I mean, can the real devil be capable of love? I always thought the devil, with his or her penchant for pure evil, was the antithesis of love. In fact, I always thought love was the only way to best the devil.

Parlez, I guess it depends on your point of view. In Ch. XI Frieda Ungern claims that “Lucifer, champion of freedom, suffers from love of mankind. And he provides mankind with knowledge through sacrifice, thus damning himself.” That didn’t make sense to me; but I guess in some circles, it is believed that Satan has the capability to love. And it appears that it is not beyond belief for P-R.

Well, it's not the first time she and I have been in dispute! I didn't agree with her description of Mercury either. In this case, I'd say she's off base again. Champion of freedom...love of mankind...knowledge through sacrifice... Aren't these characteristics of the devil's opposite (ie, the ultimate Good as embodied in Christ in the Christian tradition)? And said characteristics don't come close to fitting Lucas Corso (LC), assuming we're supposed to believe that he himself is the devil. I have to conclude that P-R is either uninformed about some of these things, or he's having fun befuddling the reader by playing fast and loose with the interpretations.
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa

savvy avi by mamabear

User avatar
Endora
Posts: 16341
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:03 pm
Location: Darkest UK~ Down in Albion

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Endora » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:47 pm

Parlez wrote: I have to conclude that P-R is either uninformed about some of these things, or he's having fun befuddling the reader by playing fast and loose with the interpretations.

Or that the whole book is about misinterpretation?

Liz, the summary of the Dark Materials books of Philliip Pullman are on Wiki. The similarity I grasped at was his view of God as a corpse-like creature and the fallen angel, Metatron, as an ordinary man.
Work hard, learn well, and make peace with the fact that you'll never be as cool as Johnny Depp. GQ.

Solace in the flood

User avatar
gemini
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby gemini » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:02 pm

I see I need to clarify my post a bit as you have all drawn lines between the devil and fallen angels. When I said I thought the girl was The fallen angel I meant the devil.

I also thought that the comment about the devil not being able to love sort of goes against Perez Reverte's comments about the devil in the book. More so than anyone else I have read, he seems to sympathize a bit with the devils trials. .

When Corso asks who the girl is and she says, The devil, the devil in love. She then asks if he believes in the devil. He says on this job he is paid to.

The girl goes on to explain why she likes the book the devil in love. Because the protagonist is sincere. His desire for knowledge and his lucidity. .
That same word lucidity she uses later in the story describing why she picked Corso.

The other interesting remark was Corso's favorite version of the devil was Miltons fallen angel.
The girls describes The fallen angel when he rebelled as having a lost expression and courage of desperation. He hides his grief to hide his failure. He missed heaven.

Those are sympathetic words to describe the devil.
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

User avatar
Parlez
Posts: 2503
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 am
Location: Colorado

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Parlez » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:28 pm

One of my favorite RS songs: Sympathy for the Devil! Thanks for planting that in my head, gemini! :disco:
You could be right, of course. The devil, as The Girl, could be the real heroine of the story...patient, protective, undemanding, loyal, trustworthy, brave...a regular Girl Scout. What a concept! Of all the devils I've ever imagined, she's one in a million!
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa

savvy avi by mamabear

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #20 ~ Irene Adler

Unread postby Liz » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:22 am

As demons go, she's not so bad. :lol:

I just thought I should post the source of all of this. I’m not sure there is much more than this (if anything else) about this battle. I couldn’t find anything about fallen angels in my concordance. Any biblical scholars out there?

Revelation 12:7-9 (New International Version):


7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The point here is that there was more than one fallen angel. She could very well have been just one of the angels that followed him.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.


Return to “The Club Dumas”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest