TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

by Arturo Perez-Reverte

Moderator: Liz

User avatar
Kittycat88
Posts: 36858
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:44 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby Kittycat88 » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:32 am

He may be using the references as a way of adding some texture to the story. Maybe to dress it up a little...I am know a little about the TTM, alot about Sherlock Holmes and thats about it. It can be annoying or even distracting to make too many references...I am more interested in Corso life and loves and feelings than the elaborate comparisons to Dumas or Doyle...but thats me. I love dialogue and action...
I have finally found a way to live just like I never could before.
I have finally found a way to live in the presence of the lord ~ E. Clapton

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby Liz » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:56 am

Parlez, I can totally relate from the artwork perspective. And you are making sense. I find books and movies much more interesting when I know the background. Thus the tidbits we do. Nebraska, I know exactly what you mean about The Libertine and Sweeney Todd. I remember having to explain the background to the people who watched them with me. I’ve been wanting to see I’m Not There, but I don’t know if I’ll get much out of it now as I do not know a whole lot about Bob Dylan. And I'm with ya, Kittycat. :cool:
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby Liz » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:04 pm

Buster wrote:It seems to me, from the second definition that Liz posted, that intertextuality is more about the stories that a given culture shares.
For example, Tim Burton once pointed out that although few people have actually read Irving's Legend of Sleepy Hollow, the image of the Headless Horseman is seared into the American subconscious. It is this awareness of cultural context that enriches a story, just as a working knowledge of historical precedent adds a new perspective to art.
I get a kick out of the cross-references in Johnny's films - and, as a Keaton fan, of all the little homages he pays to Buster.

This is a very good point, Buster. Although my head was spinning after reading the second article, I wish I was allowed to read the entire thing (but I had to be a member) because I don't feel I got a true definition of what it was, just what it wasn't (in the opinion of that writer). It seems that there are many definitions of intertexual and that the experts can't agree upon them.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
Parlez
Posts: 2503
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 am
Location: Colorado

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby Parlez » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:15 pm

Liz wrote:Parlez, I’ve been wanting to see I’m Not There, but I don’t know if I’ll get much out of it now as I do not know a whole lot about Bob Dylan.

Ooh, Liz, I didn't mean to suggest that it's impossible to expand our intertextural knowledge base. That's precisely why I wanted to be in on this discussion; because I had a hard time understanding TCD and The Ninth Gate. With the very fine tidbits, I've now become more familiar with two new authors - A. Dumas and A. Perez-Reverte - and I've increased my knowledge about antiquarian books, the devil, and, of course, the countries of France, Portugal, and Spain. How cool is that?! :cool:

So I hope you won't be put off seeing I'm Not There because of my remarks. That would be too bad, because, bascially, you shouldn't pay attention to anything I say! :lol: Go see for yourself! You might find your appetite whetted to learn more. If so, may I suggest, for starters, D.A. Pennebaker's documentary, Don't Look Back, Scorsese's No Direction Home, and the book, No Direction Home, by Robert Shelton? Or better yet, go to the Source: the music performed by the Man Himself! :heart2:
Last edited by Parlez on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa
savvy avi by mamabear

User avatar
suec
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:57 pm
Location: uk

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby suec » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:22 pm

Liz wrote:
Buster wrote:It seems to me, from the second definition that Liz posted, that intertextuality is more about the stories that a given culture shares.
For example, Tim Burton once pointed out that although few people have actually read Irving's Legend of Sleepy Hollow, the image of the Headless Horseman is seared into the American subconscious. It is this awareness of cultural context that enriches a story, just as a working knowledge of historical precedent adds a new perspective to art.
I get a kick out of the cross-references in Johnny's films - and, as a Keaton fan, of all the little homages he pays to Buster.

This is a very good point, Buster. Although my head was spinning after reading the second article, I wish I was allowed to read the entire thing (but I had to be a member) because I don't feel I got a true definition of what it was, just what it wasn't (in the opinion of that writer). It seems that there are many definitions of intertexual and that the experts can't agree upon them.


Liz, I see your point. :-/ I am familiar with the concept of intertextuality, but in the context of media texts, where I understand it means the practice of media texts referring to other texts. The Simpsons would be a good example of that. Adverts do it a lot as do some film makers. So with that understanding in mind, I came to the question thinking that we explore intertextuality rather a lot here - every time you mods post a tidbit about a background reference to a text. (And by text, I mean not just literary ones.) So I was a bit surprised to read the second definition you posted. I guess like DIDHOT said, I learnt my something new for the day.
I personally think that AP-R had a blast including all those different allusions. But I agree with Kittycat that they became a bit distracting. And there was a sense for me that I was missing something in appreciation of the book because I hadn't read Scaramouche, etc. But I don't feel that is the case now. I agree with nebraska's point about the value of having read T3M. In any case, he made his references to that book quite explicit and explained them.
But, to answer the question, I think I do agree with Balkan's view. Although a book stands on its own - pretty much - I think he's right about the boundaries. I like what he says later too:

Listen, Corso, there are no innocent readers anymore. Each overlays the text with his own perverse view. A reader is all that he’s read before, in addition to all the films and TV that he’s seen. To the information supplied by the author, he’ll always add his own. And that’s where the danger lies


As a viewer/reader I've got to admit to having a marked tendency to respond to texts in this way. I can't actually help myself. I see similarities to other texts and off I go, chasing them down, and allowing them to influence my interpretation of a book or a film. It has its pitfalls. But at the same time, I do think the literary context is interesting and informative. Or it can be. But I appreciate A R-P exploring this theme. I think he has a point.
"Luck... inspiration... both only really happen to you when you empty your heart of ambition, purpose, and plan; when you give yourself, completely, to the golden, fate-filled moment."

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby Liz » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:44 pm

I think I respond to text that way too, Suec. Thanks for posting that additional quote from the book. I think it is quite relevant.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
IngridN
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:30 pm
Location: Hilversum,The Netherlands

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby IngridN » Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:29 pm

This is a very difficult subject :-O but I will try to give my point of view.
I think that Balkan is saying this because he wants to keep Corso busy.
He does not want him to find out the real truth about the "Anjou Wine" being part of the Club Dumas. By saying this he will keep Corso busy so Liane 'Milady' and the actor playing Rochefort will find a way to take the manuscript from him.
He knows that Corso is a strategist who wants to find as many references as possible to solve the connection (which he thinks there is) between the Nine Doors and the Manuscript (Three Musketeers).
Now there are links for example:
The Nine Doors is about the Evil and summoning the devil and in the 3 Musketeers Cardinal Richelieu is the bad guy. The Devil/Richelieu who has the power to manipulate everybody, including the King and Milady.
Milady is the scheming She-Devil a.o. taking care of the murder on Lord Buckingham and she also does a lot of other nasty things like poisoning Constance Bonacieux who is d'Artagnan's amoureuse.
When she is about to leave for England to carry out her plan to kill Lord Buckingham she says goodbye to Rochefort saying to him: Give my regards to the Cardinal and he then replies "and give mine to Satan".
But the 2 books are unrelated. And Balkan says at the end of the book:
"A reader is all that he has read before in addition to all the Films and TV he has seen. To the information supplied by the author he'll always add his own.
and with all the literary references and intertextual reading Corso has drawn the
wrong conclusion. :headache: :headache: :headache:
"We are always the same age inside." Gertrude Stein

User avatar
DeppInTheHeartOfTexas
Posts: 10378
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: Austin

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby DeppInTheHeartOfTexas » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:22 pm

Ingrid, this is a very difficult subject but you handled it very well! In fact all of you have made this a very interesting subject to discuss. :cool: I too found all the literary references distracting because I wasn't familiar with so many of them, although I agree he did a good job of tying in The Three Musketeers even though the reader might not have been familiar with that particular tale. I would agree with those of you that say the more we know about a subject the more we will enjoy reading about it or seeing it on film. I think the recent HST documentary is another case in point where ONBC increased my awareness and thereby my enjoyment of a film.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -
Wow! What a ride!

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby Liz » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:20 pm

IngridN wrote:Buckingham she says goodbye to Rochefort saying to him: Give my regards to the Cardinal and he then replies "and give mine to Satan".

Oh really! Well, that's very interesting. Because I have not read T3M I never would have gotten the connection. :-O
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
gemini
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby gemini » Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:07 pm

This phrase caught my attention because Periz-Reverte has Corso making a remark about Dumas and Nine Doors that also he applies to TCD. He has the books in the story relate to each other the same way TCD relates to the Three Musketeers, Sherlock Homes etc. and keeps you referring to those stories to comprehend his story. He is a past master at the complicated intertextual game.

Do you agree with Balkan’s viewpoint on literature?
I think this viewpoint is certainly part of TCD and I am sure there are other books as entwined in each others plots but certainly not on all literature.
I do admit that is one of the reasons I liked the story. I was more into the Dumas connections at times and how they fit the books characters than all the evil parts of the plot.
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

User avatar
suec
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:57 pm
Location: uk

Status: Offline

Re: TCD Question #3 - Intertextual

Unread postby suec » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:24 am

I think the "stories" may be those of the people. Corso asks questions about "Rochefort", the real d'Artagnan, de Courtilz, and his book, Richelieu, Dumas and Adah Mencken. At the end of the conversation, after he has ben told about Adah, Corso "seemed to be searching in the night... for the lost word, the key to uniting all these different stories which floated like dead leaves on the dark waters of time". I like the way the real lives blur into fictional ones. It's appropriate with what happens with the rest of the book.
"Luck... inspiration... both only really happen to you when you empty your heart of ambition, purpose, and plan; when you give yourself, completely, to the golden, fate-filled moment."


Return to “The Club Dumas”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest