ATD Question #22 - Camilla & Rosa

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ATD Question #22 - Camilla & Rosa

Unread postby Liz » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:39 am

Compare Camilla to Rosa.
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Unread postby Betty Sue » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:50 pm

Rosa seemed like a typical nice little Catholic school girl to me. She was a good student, had many friends, treated people nicely and was very pious. It seemed she would have a good future.
Camilla was older but not that much older to be so jaded. Unlike Rosa, she had little self-confidence, a quick temper and poor judgment.
Both were slightly outside the American mainstream, but Camilla was much more disturbed by it. Both rejected Arturo, but Rosa did it much more gently. Both were lost to Arturo through illness.
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Unread postby gemini » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:28 pm

Well my first thought is they are not very similar except maybe in looks since both nationalities have dark eyes and hair. Rosa seemed shy and Arturo really admired her from afar as she was not complicit in their romance, it was mostly in his head. Then I think about Camilla and a lot of his feelings were also in his head but he did have some conversations (if you can call them that), and some physical contact with her.
Camilla is a little more worldly but she is older and although not mentioned it seems like she did not have an easy life. Rosa is too young and protected by her parents to be much more than a school girl who maybe glances his way once in awhile. Arturo and Rosa have their nationality in common where he used Camilla's heritage as a way to belittle her. Camilla has been around enough to know how to give Arturo a bit of his own medicine.
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Unread postby suec » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:23 pm

The main similarity seems to be their deaths. Both are a bit disdainful of him, if memory serves me right. Both show his messages around. Both are pretty unobtainable, to a greater or lesser extent. Arturo seems to like the chase, and to fantasise about them.
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Unread postby Liz » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:26 pm

Great answers all around! :applause:

gemini wrote: Then I think about Camilla and a lot of his feelings were also in his head but he did have some conversations (if you can call them that), and some physical contact with her.

I thought of how he was physically abusive, to an extent, with both of them. And he romanticized about both of them.

suec wrote:Both show his messages around.

Good catch, Suec. I missed that one.
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Unread postby Parlez » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:15 pm

I agree with Gemini. :highfive:
It seems with both females, they're just there, minding their own business, simply occupying the same space as Arturo, and boom! ~ off he goes on his abusive-romantic-fantasy-emotional goof-ball loop! Rosa, of course, has the protection of her family and the safety of her school friends, whilst Camilla does not. She's on her own, to defend herself as best she can. She does a pretty good job too, IMO.
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Unread postby Liz » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Fante was obsessed about the imminent deaths of the two women and writes about them in a similar fashion….

Pg. 100, ATD:


“It’s worse in Los Angeles,” he said. “Thousands dead.”
Thousands. That meant Camilla. The Columbia Buffet would be the first to tumble. It was so old, the brick walls so cracked and feeble. Sure, she was dead. She worked from four until eleven. She had been caught in the midst of it. She was dead and I was alive. Good. I pictured her dead: she would lie still in this manner; her eyes closed like this, her hands clasped like that. She was dead and I was alive. We didn’t understand one another, but she had been good to me, in her fashion. I would remember her a long time. I was probably the only man on earth who would remember her. I could think of so many charming things about her, her huaraches, her shame for her people her absurd little Ford.


Pg. 165-169, Wait Until Spring, Bandini:

That Rosa, so lovely! He wished instead that she would die. He pictured disease wasting her away until there had to be a funeral…..Of course he didn’t really want her to die, not really and truly cross my heart and hope to die, but still and all there was a chance. Poor Rosa, so young and pretty—and dead. What he saw there………..was a Christmas wreath instead. He was glad, hurrying away in the storm. Sure I’m glad! Who wants to see anybody die But he wasn’t glad, he wasn’t glad at all. He wasn’t a star for the Yankees. He hadn’t come by chartered plane. This was Christmas Eve in Rocklin, Colorado.
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Unread postby Parlez » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:51 pm

Nice comparison passages there, Liz!
I think it shows how much Arturo wants his women to be one-dimensional (as in dead) so that he can stop having to cope with them as real people and instead start romanticizing about who they were and what they meant to him. Past tense. He could edit out his despicable part of the story (like the bit with Camilla's harauches) and put a whole other spin on his 'relationship' with them. In real life (as in alive) they were, to him, uncontrollable entities with whom he didn't have a clue how to behave. But dead, they were totally under his editorial control. He wished they were dead, frozen, flat ~ so they could come alive in his fantasies. ugh.:-/
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Unread postby Betty Sue » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:19 pm

Parlez wrote:Nice comparison passages there, Liz!
I think it shows how much Arturo wants his women to be one-dimensional (as in dead) so that he can stop having to cope with them as real people and instead start romanticizing about who they were and what they meant to him. Past tense. He could edit out his despicable part of the story (like the bit with Camilla's harauches) and put a whole other spin on his 'relationship' with them. In real life (as in alive) they were, to him, uncontrollable entities with whom he didn't have a clue how to behave. But dead, they were totally under his editorial control. He wished they were dead, frozen, flat ~ so they could come alive in his fantasies. ugh.:-/

Wow!! You may be right! :freaked: I could never figure out why he would so quickly jump to picturing them dead! :-O
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Unread postby nebraska » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:33 pm

Parlez wrote:Nice comparison passages there, Liz!
I think it shows how much Arturo wants his women to be one-dimensional (as in dead) so that he can stop having to cope with them as real people and instead start romanticizing about who they were and what they meant to him. Past tense. He could edit out his despicable part of the story (like the bit with Camilla's harauches) and put a whole other spin on his 'relationship' with them. In real life (as in alive) they were, to him, uncontrollable entities with whom he didn't have a clue how to behave. But dead, they were totally under his editorial control. He wished they were dead, frozen, flat ~ so they could come alive in his fantasies. ugh.:-/


That is excellent Parlez!!!!!!!! :bounce: I think you have just defined Arturo accurately.

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Unread postby DeppInTheHeartOfTexas » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:28 pm

Very interesting and well said! :cool:
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Unread postby Liz » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:37 pm

nebraska wrote:
Parlez wrote:Nice comparison passages there, Liz!
I think it shows how much Arturo wants his women to be one-dimensional (as in dead) so that he can stop having to cope with them as real people and instead start romanticizing about who they were and what they meant to him. Past tense. He could edit out his despicable part of the story (like the bit with Camilla's harauches) and put a whole other spin on his 'relationship' with them. In real life (as in alive) they were, to him, uncontrollable entities with whom he didn't have a clue how to behave. But dead, they were totally under his editorial control. He wished they were dead, frozen, flat ~ so they could come alive in his fantasies. ugh.:-/


That is excellent Parlez!!!!!!!! :bounce: I think you have just defined Arturo accurately.


:lol: Oh my! Interesting idea, there, Parlez. I had a hard time reconciling his writing about their deaths the way he did.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.


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