ATD Question #13 ~ The Sea

by John Fante

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fansmom
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Unread postby fansmom » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:47 pm

DeppInTheHeartOfTexas wrote:Parlez, I think fansmom is referring back to our disucssion of The Bomb in My Garden. Dr. Obeidi had buried the plans and some components dealing with Iraq's nuclear program under the lotus tree in his garden. In simplistic terms (there are others here who can give a much more eloquent explanation) in Middle Eastern culture and the Koran, the lotus represents knowledge that is known only to God and should not be known by man.

fansmom, you can explain it better than I can!
No, you got it! This is from Bomb --
In the Koran the lotus, or lote, represents the boundary between mortal knowledge and God, the border between what is known and what cannot be known.
Compare that with what Parlez said--
The beach represents the boundary between existence and non-existence, between knowing and unknowing, between our dream reality and our concrete reality.

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Unread postby DeppInTheHeartOfTexas » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:29 pm

Yes...great comparison! :cool:
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -
Wow! What a ride!

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Unread postby Liz » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:13 am

fansmom wrote:
DeppInTheHeartOfTexas wrote:Parlez, I think fansmom is referring back to our disucssion of The Bomb in My Garden. Dr. Obeidi had buried the plans and some components dealing with Iraq's nuclear program under the lotus tree in his garden. In simplistic terms (there are others here who can give a much more eloquent explanation) in Middle Eastern culture and the Koran, the lotus represents knowledge that is known only to God and should not be known by man.

fansmom, you can explain it better than I can!
No, you got it! This is from Bomb --
In the Koran the lotus, or lote, represents the boundary between mortal knowledge and God, the border between what is known and what cannot be known.
Compare that with what Parlez said--
The beach represents the boundary between existence and non-existence, between knowing and unknowing, between our dream reality and our concrete reality.

Wow!

Parlez wrote:It appears we're all interpreting this passage according to our own particular belief systems ~ which is just as it should be! It's nigh impossible to escape the templates with which we have been brought up; they are in our blood.

Parlez, I was thinking the same thing.

Parlez wrote:I just want to add that I really like the beach symbolism too. In dream analysis, the beach is often seen as the place where the dreaming mind, or unconscious mind, meets the waking mind, or consciousness. It is considered to be the place where pure spirit becomes form. The beach represents the boundary between existence and non-existence, between knowing and unknowing, between our dream reality and our concrete reality. It's on the beach, symbolically speaking, where we can see both of those aspects of our being and where we have the best chance of resolving the duality and finding a sense of unity and peace.
Pretty heady stuff!

No wonder I feel the way I do about the beach.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

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Unread postby Liz » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:21 am

Since we are talking about the sea I thought I'd share my TZ moment from last night.....

A friend of mine, who I coaxed into reading ATD, emailed me last night to tell me that her friend had forwarded her an article from the New York Times about a surfer. Her friend did not know, I don’t think, that my friend was reading ATD. The article in the Times about Dane Reynolds, a pro surfer, starts with a reference to John Fante:


When Dane Reynolds is not riding waves or hanging out with friends, he likes to read. Lately, he recommends John Fante’s “The Road to Los Angeles,” for its protagonist, the struggling writer Arturo Bandini.

The article continues with:

Reynolds is viewed by many as one of the most talented up-and-coming surfers.

“He’s definitely alienated, and lots of internal struggles,” Reynolds, who has dealt with those themes, said of Bandini.


The article concludes with:

“I’m just tired of taking the path that people tell me I should be. I’d just rather do what makes me happy.”

Like read a good book.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

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Unread postby Parlez » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:46 am

fansmom wrote:
DeppInTheHeartOfTexas wrote:Parlez, I think fansmom is referring back to our disucssion of The Bomb in My Garden. Dr. Obeidi had buried the plans and some components dealing with Iraq's nuclear program under the lotus tree in his garden. In simplistic terms (there are others here who can give a much more eloquent explanation) in Middle Eastern culture and the Koran, the lotus represents knowledge that is known only to God and should not be known by man.

fansmom, you can explain it better than I can!
No, you got it! This is from Bomb --
In the Koran the lotus, or lote, represents the boundary between mortal knowledge and God, the border between what is known and what cannot be known.
Compare that with what Parlez said--
The beach represents the boundary between existence and non-existence, between knowing and unknowing, between our dream reality and our concrete reality.

Hmmm...the comparison doesn't work for me...mainly because there's a big difference between 'unknowing' and coming to the conclusion that something cannot or should not be known. Unknowing has to do with unconscious material (like dreams) whilst the other is a judgement call, coming from the intellect.
Definitely not Zen!
Anyone who's interested in reading really profound (and beautiful) writing about the meaning of the sea and man's relationship to it (from the standpoint of being on the beach) should read Big Sur by Jack Kerouac. :chill:
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa
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Liz
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Unread postby Liz » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:22 pm

Parlez wrote:
fansmom wrote:
DeppInTheHeartOfTexas wrote:Parlez, I think fansmom is referring back to our disucssion of The Bomb in My Garden. Dr. Obeidi had buried the plans and some components dealing with Iraq's nuclear program under the lotus tree in his garden. In simplistic terms (there are others here who can give a much more eloquent explanation) in Middle Eastern culture and the Koran, the lotus represents knowledge that is known only to God and should not be known by man.

fansmom, you can explain it better than I can!
No, you got it! This is from Bomb --
In the Koran the lotus, or lote, represents the boundary between mortal knowledge and God, the border between what is known and what cannot be known.
Compare that with what Parlez said--
The beach represents the boundary between existence and non-existence, between knowing and unknowing, between our dream reality and our concrete reality.

Hmmm...the comparison doesn't work for me...mainly because there's a big difference between 'unknowing' and coming to the conclusion that something cannot or should not be known. Unknowing has to do with unconscious material (like dreams) whilst the other is a judgement call, coming from the intellect.
Definitely not Zen!
Anyone who's interested in reading really profound (and beautiful) writing about the meaning of the sea and man's relationship to it (from the standpoint of being on the beach) should read Big Sur by Jack Kerouac. :chill:


I see what you are saying, Parlez. And that book sounds quite appealing.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

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Unread postby gemini » Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:47 pm

I thought of a double symbolism yesterday but thought this discussion was about covered so didn't post. Anyhow it seems we are doing a lot of comparisons so why not.
Arturo said;
I tell you I was born on the seashore! I bathed in the waters of the sea! It gave me food and it gave me peace, and its fascinating distances fed my dreams! No, Arturo, there never was a sea.
When I first read this I only thought of the symbolism to his religious faith which I think was the way he meant it but after delving into it awhile, I see it as a double symbolism. The sea is also considered the birth of all living things so he may have been comparing it to religion and his readings of evolution at the same time. Somewhat like his ying and yang comparisons back to back in Arturo's rants.

Liz, it make me feel good that there are those in the younger generation still not ashamed of reading a book. Maybe Johnny is helping in showing that the geek is not the only one who reads.
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

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Unread postby suec » Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:24 pm

Very interesting points here. I got as far as thinking about the sea as a source and origin of life and then possibly reflecting on where we have come from and thus where are we going, and that was it then.
"Luck... inspiration... both only really happen to you when you empty your heart of ambition, purpose, and plan; when you give yourself, completely, to the golden, fate-filled moment."


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