TPAOL Question #12 ~ The People's Act of Love

by James Meek

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Unread postby Endora » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:34 pm

Angelina, thank you for your posts. It's so interesting to read what other cultures think. And propaganda, yes. It's insidious in all our countries. The trouble is, because we've studies it in history, for example, we think we understand the techniques and are wise to it. The problem that we don't see is that it's still used and even more effectively because it's done so much more subtley.

Was Samarin justified? On the simple moral principle that killing another person is wrong, no. Making exceptions is the start of a slippery slope.
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Unread postby nebraska » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:37 pm

I am reading all the discussion and I am completely humbled by all of you!!!!! I read this book around Christmas time because the "old people" story in Happy Days was really depressing me.......TPAOL was actually a relief! But I feel like I missed everything the first time through..I have gone back and read the first three chapters again and it is like I am reading a book I never saw before. This one definitely needs a second reading!!!!!!!! I wish I was able to participate more, but I feel like I am totally out of the loop.

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Unread postby Liz » Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:01 am

I have to agree with you, Nebraska. This book needs a second or third reading. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of time, although I have gone back and read portions of chapters. And at those times I was finding myself asking why I hadn't remembered it that way.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

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Unread postby DeppInTheHeartOfTexas » Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:06 pm

So true! One of these days I want to give it a second go. Hopefully while our discussion is still fresh in my mind.
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Unread postby Xaxis » Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:49 pm

Angelina wrote,In WWII perished 27 millions Russians. 27 millions. More than 10 millions from them was killed in Germans concentration camps, “ the camps of the death”. The Russians, the Slavs, like Jews, was declared as the untermenschen by Nazi regime, and planned to the total destruction. Nazi burned down the Russians together with Jews in the Nazi camps, in the furnaces, which worked like a conveyor. And to write after this “Holocost was made in Russia” – I can’t believe my eyes. Dear Herr Seidler, Holocost was made in Germany, in your country, by the way, and there are enough papers and photos too to prove it, including the evidences of witnesses on the Nurnberg process. Russia is a friend for Germany, but isn’t a friend for a neo-nazi like you. Unquote.

I feel sick and I can't believe I'm going to actually say this about millions of peoples death. The number of murders in the German concentration camps, 11 million lives. Six million, Jews and 5 million non-Jews. I don't know where you are getting 10 million concentration camp Russians? Are you including prison of war camp numbers? I mean no disrespect to the dead. I attend Yom Hashoah every year to honor the dead and these are the numbers given and also the numbers given in many things I have read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

I believe this is what we were attempting to discuss, (added edit, 2/18)

The summary of various sources' estimates on the number of Nazi regime victims is given in Matthew White's online atlas of 20th century history.

In his article "Assaults on Truth and Memory: Holocaust Denial in Context", which appears in A Little Matter of Genocide (1997), Ward Churchill addresses Holocaust scholarship that claims for the Jews "the status of an 'unparalleled' victimization". He argues that the suffering of non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust (as well as victims of other genocides) "is correspondingly downgraded or shunted into historical oblivion." With that in mind, Churchill counts all the Slavic peoples as targets for Nazi genocide, partly based on their being classified, like the Jews and Gypsies, as Untermenschen (subhumans). But the crux of his argument for including the Slavs (other than the Poles, who were more directly targeted) lies in "the Hitlerian vision of Lebensraumpolitik—the conquest of vast expanses of Slavic territory in eastern Europe for 'resettlement' by a tremendously enlarged Germanic population.... The 45 million human beings constituting the difference between the existing population and its projected diminishment were to be dispensed with through a combination of massive expulsion and a variety of killing programs." Churchill goes on to calculate the total number of Slavic victims of the Holocaust as roughly 20 million, a number that includes the 3.5 million Soviet POWs, 3 million Soviet slave laborers, 7 million Ukrainian civilians over the course of Nazi invasion and occupation, 1.2 million Yugoslav civilians, and 3 million Christian Poles, among others. In addition, he estimates the number of Sinti and Roma victims at over one million. [42]


I hope this helps clarify. I know that it helped me understand.

My uncle, Otto a fair haired, blued eyed angel, was one of the very first children killed by Nazi T-4 Euthanasia program. This topic is exceedingly becoming more and more emotional for me. I must share with you how upsetting it is to me to study such human horrors almost everyday with an intellectual attempt at detachment. I don't think I can do it anymore. It's beginning to pull me under, so I may excuse myself.

A great thing to bring a little hope,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews
Last edited by Xaxis on Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Depputante » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:02 pm

Being Unbiased is extremely difficult Xaxis.

When I was in university, studying Japan's industrial rise to a 1st world country, in the library, were, of course, many books about WW2.
In one book, I would read that 'X' number of people died. Then, I would pull the book beside it off the shelf, and it said 'XX' number of people died in the same disaster. In university, our teachers, especially in 4th year, stressed the importance of being unbiased in our writings. How? I have no idea. Taking both numbers and taking the average? That in itself would be a lie.

WW2 was terrible by any means. I hope you find peace somehow. The next questions seem less explosive. :hug:
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Unread postby Liz » Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:15 pm

When doing tidbits I get conflicting information. It can be hard to sift out what is fact and what is not. Xaxis, this has been a very emotional, philosophical and intellectual discussion. We have discussed many horrors—real ones. It is certainly understandable that you would need a break, especially when it comes so close to home. :-/ We promise we will get to the “fun” questions soon. Keep a sharp eye.
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Unread postby Angelina » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:44 pm

Xaxis wrote:This topic is exceedingly becoming more and more emotional for me. I must share with you how upsetting it is to me to study such human horrors almost everyday with an intellectual attempt at detachment. I don't think I can do it anymore. It's beginning to pull me under, so I may excuse myself.

Xaxis, yes, I understand you. It’s been so many years ago, and it still touches us. I’m crying about your uncle. My uncle, who was only 3 years, perished in WWII too. And both my grandfathers. For Russia our family is typical. On the contrary, here such families are unique, who didn’t lose anyone during that war.
I’d prefer don’t speak about it. You’re right – our discussion here becomes too emotional, but during our discussion we met a man (I mean Herr Seidler), who doesn’t permit us to forget about horrors and insults the memory of our lost, so it demanded some answer.

Thank you for the link about Holocost. I have to say , it proves, what Lady Jill said: “I didn't realize that so many Russians were killed during WWII, and never realized that they were in the Holocast with the Jews. All we ever heard over here was all about the Jews being inihilated”. The post on the Wilkipedia also notices, “many scholars do not include these groups [Russians, Polish] in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews”. This approach really gave a possibility to hide a statistics about other people from the wide public.
10 millions in Nazi concentration camps it is our official statistic (and many historians and history societies speak about this number still is incomplete). I guess, the number on the Wilkipedia might include only statistics about Soviet soldiers in German camps (and quite approximately, I’m afraid), but 10 millions includes also the peace people, who were drove away and killed in the camps, and the statistics from Germans camps on the territory not only Germany, but also Poland, Baltia, Belorussia and Russia.

Ooh, the sad theme, really. I have to say, most of people in Russia (and me too) don’t love to speak about in general, who suffered more in WWII – it is a too sad competition. Each human life is priceless, we don’t want to divide the victims of WWII on the separate nations. We want honour the memory of our lost, but not to square any accounts and to start new brawls.
And about Germany – Russia, absolutely majority of the people in Russia, think, Germany paid for Hitler already, and it is really enough. The war is ended. Modern generations of Germans, who were born after 1945 and didn’t know any Hitler in general, don’t have to hear the reproaches about WWII more. That Neonazist, who we speak about yesterday, isn’t the all Germany (although the prize for his book really worries). And I believe, that now we should better care about the present our own countries, but not about the past of another.
I don't think I have any enemies, really. The scariest enemy is within, allowing yourself to conform to what is expected of you~ Johnny Depp, PE junket in Japan

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Unread postby Parlez » Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:04 pm

Sorry to hear this is getting so grim for you, Xaxis. :-/ Completely understandable though. By all means, take a break. Or, look over at today's thread, which is turning into a hoot..or a whinny as it were. (Seems the strain of this book is taking its toll on us all!)

The trouble, in a way, is that we're none of us removed enough yet from the events of WWII...not enough time has passed to allow any objectivity at all, really. It's fine to try to have some detachment, but the emotional piece is still raw, with Holocaust survivors still living and veterans on all sides still here. It's wonderful that they are, of course, and that we get to hear, first-hand, their stories. But, since we are the recipients now of living history and its repercussions we can only be shocked, appalled, outraged, and heartbroken; those are our appropriate responses to the numbers, the pictures and the stories. Maybe the next generations will be able to establish a more academic, detached look at that period in history, but not us. We believe in nightmares; we're still in one.
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Unread postby rainbowsoul » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:42 pm

nebraska wrote:I am reading all the discussion and I am completely humbled by all of you!!!!! I read this book around Christmas time because the "old people" story in Happy Days was really depressing me.......TPAOL was actually a relief! But I feel like I missed everything the first time through..I have gone back and read the first three chapters again and it is like I am reading a book I never saw before. This one definitely needs a second reading!!!!!!!! I wish I was able to participate more, but I feel like I am totally out of the loop.


You said exactly what i have been feeling, nebraska. I almost feel like I read a different book than everyone else did - I missed So much the first time through. :blush:

A group of smart well-spoken folks here!! Well done, everyone
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Unread postby Liz » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:44 pm

I think future generations won’t be focusing on Nazis. They’ll have a couple of groups to focus on. But I think historians and students will always look at the Holocaust as the worst atrocity or the initial warning. We are told “never forget”. And we won’t. That's ONE of the reasons why our country does what it does. And I have now gotten off of my :soapbox: before it's even started.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

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Unread postby Xaxis » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:11 pm

Thank you all for your kind words and concern.
My heart also goes out to Angelina and Angelina's family.
I never meant to imply any kind of competition of suffering. A insiduious and insatiable game to say the least, which would only hurt our hearts. You are my human family and our suffering is one. All acts of evil againts one another are my family suffering. That is how my heart embraces it.
For me there is a overwhelming desire to let others know about injustice. To witness to injustice. Not just one race or nation over another.

Where my concern was in asking and wanting to know was if these Russians died in concentration camps and if their deaths are being omitted. It is so very important to the history of the Holocaust that the dead are not only remembered by their name and honored, but also that the numbers are as accurate as possible. In the hands of Holocaust deniers and Neo-Nazis conflicting information becomes fuel for their cause and nothing would please them more than for us to argue over it. Not here.
I needed clearification from someone. What had I missed? Where were these numbers coming from.
I hope some of you will understand this.

That a few people were unaware of the Holocaust including non Jews. That you have learned that here is important. If I may further inform, the world collectively with their hatred and indifference to Jews helped create inescapable pathways that lead to the concentration camps. Even President Roosevelt wrote in a policy of anti immigration which had he not done, may have saved hundreds of thousands.
Had Stalin lived six more months it is said that he held a plan to kill all the remaining Jews in Soviet Russia. (source, Martin Amis)
One of the worst horrific sadnesses after WWII ended was that no one wanted the Jews. There was no one even then to take them in. Can you imagine? Even after being liberated from a nightmare, no one wants you. There are other nightmares with this result. The hatred continued.
Hatred was not just for the Jew. I am not trying to only focus upon the Jews. Hatred was all around the world and still is as you all are aware of. That's what happens here.
But what else happens, here is LOVE. So, when you can always reach for compassion and LOVE. Please, above all LOVE.
“Know thyself” and “Nothing to excess” inscribed on the temple of Apollo at Delphi.

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Unread postby Linda Lee » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:33 pm

Xaxis, a beautifully written post. :bawl:
The horror of WWII is hard to comprehend sometimes, but it must be remembered and as you said as accurately as possible. I knew the Holocaust included more than the 6 million Jews, but I don't think any of us (in the USA) were aware of Russia's losses. We need to remember this time so it may never happen again, from any source.
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Unread postby Xaxis » Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:52 pm

:pray:Thank you for your kind words, Linda Lee.
:pray:Let us pray that all may awaken out of the repeating nightmares that happen here.
:pray:
“Know thyself” and “Nothing to excess” inscribed on the temple of Apollo at Delphi.

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Unread postby DeppInTheHeartOfTexas » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:03 pm

Xaxis, it seems like such a simple thing for people to practice and appreciate...love and tolerance.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -

Wow! What a ride!


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