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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:16 pm 
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Is Samarin’s act of cannibalism justifiable?
I think my opinion has been pretty much mentioned before but I have a little twist. The key words here are "Samarin's Act ". I realize this is a taboo, but I think there are some forms of cannibalism that I would call justifiable. After reading of the whole city dying of starvation in Leningrad, I started sympathizing with mothers eating those who had died before them, to save their children. I think the instinct to survive and save your family might force you to overcome the taboo. This does not involve murder and is obviously only a last resort. Samarin, as said before, is guilty, because not only did he murder, but it was premeditated. The fact that the man was his friend and comrade is even more repulsive to me. So my answer here is no in Samarin's case.



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:46 pm 
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Gemini wrote:
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I realize this is a taboo, but I think there are some forms of cannibalism that I would call justifiable. After reading of the whole city dying of starvation in Leningrad, I started sympathizing with mothers eating those who had died before them, to save their children. I think the instinct to survive and save your family might force you to overcome the taboo. This does not involve murder and is obviously only a last resort.


I agree that this was justfiable for the reasons stated, I can't see any parent letting a child starve, if there was a way to save them.



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:53 am 
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Good evening. . . I've been pondering this question, as well as cannibalism, all day.
Finally this evening, I googled, cannibalism in russia, and came up with this incredible link. . . WARNING, not for the faint of heart:
http://www.cwporter.com/sovcan.htm
( by the way, TPAOL came up a lot! Lots of meat for reading!)

So I guess I had to really see first hand that its' really a thing that happens. In these writings, the German soldiers saw the Russians doing the cannibalism on their dead within a prison. So I can deduct that it was and maybe still is a fact of survival. If you were faced with life or death, than boiling up an arm might be just the thing . . .like the Donner Party!

I also remember an recent incident of a plane crash in the Andes of South America where survival was a factor in cannibalism.

So was Samarin justifiable? Yup. And it probably came from a warped mind.

Cheers! Back to those smiling pics of Johnny! :bounce:
Lady Jill



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:04 am 
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Liz said:
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the de-emphasis on personal choice or of the individual keeps popping up. It was made clear in Dr. Zhivago (which I watched on Sat.) and also in Reds. The other thing that bothers me is the idea that someone like Samarin or others involved in the revolution should decide what is best for the people


Liz, there is a passage on p92 that struck me quite forcibly:

Quote:
This is the secret they do not want you to know: you are not alone. They speak of the people. The people is you, the people is in you and you are in the people: the people is a terrible force, stronger than armies because without the people money has nothing to buy, stronger than love, because without the love of the people there can be no true love. The people is you. The people is all-powerful
.

It makes me think of Samarin present at some of these rallies and absorbing the rhetoric to be trotted out later to Anna in some ways. But Samarin has already set himself up as being apart from this, and as history has proved, this is going to be the case. Leaders will emerge.

Angelina, I like your point about food being being available in the Taiga, and Samarin testing himself. I hadn't considered it that way. It makes his act much worse. And thank you for the information about Samarin's literary brothers. :cool:



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Angelina wrote:
I can call at least three literature heroes, where Samarin could come from.

It was an interesting literature investigation in that time, I have to say. The our writers searched the type of the person, who is able to change the existing order, and many of them guessed, it must be the unordinary person, the sort of an “Ubermensch”, and that person must test yourself before he will start to do his great exploits.
The such ideas was very popular in Russia in the first middle of 19th century – it was the consequences of a so named “bonapartism”, the cult of Napoleon Bonapart, ...

But, I think, despite a having of a power ideological and the theoretical basis for his action in the cannibalism area, Samarin is guilty. You can’t kill people only to proof something to himself. And I think, like Dostojevsky, Meek tries to show not only the crime, but the punishment of Samarin too - his aspiration to get rid of the ability to love completely. I don’t think, Meek approached to Dostojevsky here, but the trying was good. :cool:


Angelina, :angel: ,
Thankyou for your input. Often during this novel, I am worried that we judge the charachters without fully understanding their culture.
We think, yes, we think no, based on our own (North American) biases.....and then you suggest...he is trying to proove something to himself! :-O Another angle, in which we had not considered, because we lack true knowledge of the political background of Russia. Further, I had no idea the Samarin type of charachter was popular. This is my first time to read such a novel about a revolutinary.



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:32 pm 
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Lady Jill wrote:
Finally this evening, I googled, cannibalism in russia, and came up with this incredible link. . . WARNING, not for the faint of heart:
http://www.cwporter.com/sovcan.htm
( by the way, TPAOL came up a lot! Lots of meat for reading!)

So I guess I had to really see first hand that its' really a thing that happens. In these writings, the German soldiers saw the Russians doing the cannibalism on their dead within a prison.

What can I say? I guess, girls, you probably noticed, I often write here about misrepresentations of Russian history and of information about modern Russia, which do in media of US and Europe now. I think, I can look like a paranoic with that theme sometimes. But this… you see?

This is the ordinary fashism. Even worse – the ordinary neo-fashism. The “professor” Franz Seidler accuses the Sovjet soldiers in the cannibalism with papers and photos. With papers and photos, which made Nazi in Nazis camp of the death. He accuses the Sovjet soldiers, who those Nazi placed in inhuman conditions, exposing them to constantly tortures, physical and moral. Scroll down the page, you will see the exhausted bodies, which look like skeletons. “The professor” Seidler blames these alive skeletons, who Nazi killed with a hunger, in the cannibalism, and calls it one of “inhumane and ignominious brutalities committed by the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union”. Bravo! And this book receives the "Pour le Mérite" prize for military history in Germany. Another bravo. And in the final they present the banner “MADE IN RUSSIA - THE HOLOCO$T”. The bravo number three.

What is it – the cynicism, the insolence, the full losing of any human conscience? We spoke yesterday about the consequence for an invented criminal Samarin. I wonder, what a consequences would be suit for the really existing professor Seidler?

In WWII perished 27 millions Russians. 27 millions. More than 10 millions from them was killed in Germans concentration camps, “ the camps of the death”. The Russians, the Slavs, like Jews, was declared as the untermenschen by Nazi regime, and planned to the total destruction. Nazi burned down the Russians together with Jews in the Nazi camps, in the furnaces, which worked like a conveyor. And to write after this “Holocost was made in Russia” – I can’t believe my eyes. Dear Herr Seidler, Holocost was made in Germany, in your country, by the way, and there are enough papers and photos too to prove it, including the evidences of witnesses on the Nurnberg process. Russia is a friend for Germany, but isn’t a friend for a neo-nazi like you.

I don’t beg a pardon, girls, for a speaking about these things, or for my off top. Sadly, but the tryings to slander Russia and to insult our memory about WWII victims, do constantly right now. More sadly, even such clever and intellectual people, like Johnny, are caught with it – I mean his Litvinenko story.
Anyway, thanks for the link, Lady Jill. I will send it to some our state and public organizations, which are occupied with the history of WWII and with problems of a development of a neo-nazism in the West Europe. I think, it will be interesting for them, and they will react on this thing properly.



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:28 pm 
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I am so touched by your post here, Angelina ~ THANK YOU again! :lilyrose:
You bring up such a good point about blame and criminal behavior and who is the bad guy. That seems to be the game being played ever since the end of WWII, and it's been sooo easy and convenient to point the finger at Russia all the time. When we hear about the toll of war dead during that horrific event, it comes as a surprise every time to learn that the body count of Russian soldiers was far higher than of any other of the allied countries. Their losses were great and their rewards for their suffering were few.
To me, one of the major themes in TPAOL is about the 'spin', or lies, the characters tell themselves and others; all the propaganda that goes on to convince people they're doing the 'right' thing. The 20th C has used that tool to perfection, undermining the whole concept to truth-telling, which is now considered to be both naive and passe.
I think that might actually be the 'spectre' that's haunting Europe and the whole world these days...along with our inability to see the futility of war and to recognize the fact that it's impossible for peace to arise from acts of violence.
:soapbox:



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:14 pm 
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Thank you for your understanding, Parlez. I want to say, I become more calmly to look at different lunges to Russia after conversations with you, Noodlemantras. Until we will able to think and to hear each other, the propaganda won’t able to do with us anything. :grouphug:

And I agree with you, Parlez, about the propaganda and a lie as a major themes of TPAOL, and about the modern 'spectre' that's haunting Europe and the whole world too. I hope, that spectre nevertheless will leave the world some day.
:soapbox:



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:37 pm 
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Angelina wrote:
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What can I say? I guess, girls, you probably noticed, I often write here about misrepresentations of Russian history and of information about modern Russia, which do in media of US and Europe now. I think, I can look like a paranoic with that theme sometimes. But this… you see?


Angelina, I am very glad you are here to write about these things for us and let us know when information is being misrepresented. It is very sad that anyone has to try and put blame where it doesn't belong and in some cases to even deny such horrors even existed at all! We are very glad to you have you onboard our ONBC ship and I think it is especially wonderful to have different countries represented. The more we know about each other the better and smaller the world becomes and less powerful the propaganda can be! :cool:



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:04 pm 
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Angelina:
Thank you so much for responding to my link, which I found. . .amazing.
My thought was that those people, albeit Russian, were more than likely starved and tortured, to get into the act of surviving by eating their dead. That seems what the Germans were good at, starving and great brutalities.

I didn't realize that so many Russians were killed during WWII, and never realized that they were in the Holocast with the Jews. All we ever heard over here was all about the Jews being inihilated.

I read that at the bottom, Made in Russia - The Hohocos$t, and couldn't figure that out either.

My parallel here I was getting to was between Samarin and the Russian soldiers in their hunger and confinement becoming cannibals.

Really appreciate your input of reality on Russia.

Lady Jill



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:05 pm 
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Parlez wrote:
I am so touched by your post here, Angelina ~ THANK YOU again! :lilyrose:
You bring up such a good point about blame and criminal behavior and who is the bad guy. That seems to be the game being played ever since the end of WWII, and it's been sooo easy and convenient to point the finger at Russia all the time. When we hear about the toll of war dead during that horrific event, it comes as a surprise every time to learn that the body count of Russian soldiers was far higher than of any other of the allied countries. Their losses were great and their rewards for their suffering were few.
To me, one of the major themes in TPAOL is about the 'spin', or lies, the characters tell themselves and others; all the propaganda that goes on to convince people they're doing the 'right' thing. The 20th C has used that tool to perfection, undermining the whole concept to truth-telling, which is now considered to be both naive and passe.
I think that might actually be the 'spectre' that's haunting Europe and the whole world these days...along with our inability to see the futility of war and to recognize the fact that it's impossible for peace to arise from acts of violence.
:soapbox:


I agree with all of what you say here Parlez, especially the last sentence. The ''Spectre that is haunting the world'' brings to mind a story my mother once told me. Since I wasn't born until my father returned home I am glad things didn't go the way my Aunt wanted or I would not be here.

This is an unrelated story and a bit of me on my anti war soap box so feel free to skip it if you choose to not hear anything un-American. Remember Jefferson said dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

As I mentioned before my father went to Europe in the war. He went to England, France, and Germany and was gone between 3 and 4 years. My parents weren't married long before he was sent overseas so to them the war seemed to last a very long time. ( Probably not so long compared to the Russian soldiers).

According to my mother our country was filled with propaganda about Russia even though we were allies. My mother tells of an argument she had with her older sister who wanted the troops to stay in Europe after the end of the war and attack Russia since it was so badly wounded from fighting Germany. My mother who had had enough of war and wanted my father home thought her sister had lost her mind. I only recall this story to tell what sort of things propaganda can cause even in one family.

One of the things I love most about the internet is that it makes it a very small world when we can converse with one another and not have to rely on our governments to tell us what goes on in the world.


Last edited by gemini on Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Gemini, Even if you watch a little show called Oprah, when she has journalists on. They tell you all about the propaganda going on even now. Perhaps this is part of the 'Spectre' (ghosts) we're talking about. (The word...Spectre is rather new and confusing...I substitute 'ghosts')

My personal :soapbox: I am dead set against sending people off to war, especially inside someone else's country.

That said, Samarin's war is of a different nature. It's within his own country, and even within himself. I think it's just as intense internally in Sam though, and that's part of what causes him to be a Revolutionary.


Last edited by Depputante on Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:12 pm 
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:blush:



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:53 pm 
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gemini wrote:
One of the things I love most about the internet is that it makes it a very small world when we can converse with one another and not have to rely on our governments to tell us what goes on in the world.


Amazing, isn't it? :hypnotic: Thanks again, Angelina, for sharing your knowledge of the truth. Again, I feel so fortunate to have you here as part of this discussion. :cloud9:



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:12 am 
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I don't have anything new to contribute to this conversation, but I just wanted to say this =P

Before I read the book I didn't think cannibalism could be justifiable at all. But hearing Samarin's side of it, I can see how he would think what he did was okay. Whenever I thought of cannibalism I never really thought of it as a last resort where survival is concerned, and I feel like an idiot for not realising it xD I admire that he did go to find Katya though and I sort of realise that it really is an act of love, just not to the person being eaten :-|

And I should also say it's been great reading all your posts! I don't think I could reach so deeply into a subject like this :blush:


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