It is currently Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:33 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




 Page 3 of 4 [ 46 posts ]  Go to page
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:05 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 3907
Location: Florida
Ok Back I go to read page 72 again. I have read this book twice and am still amazed at what I missed.
Yes, you have it Parlez.
This is a definite point in favor of Laurent using Antionne as his spokesman for sacrificing self for humanity. He pretty much says it here.
Antionne says,
His goal: To seach for the human in humankind
His selflessness: I offer myself as a human specimen, sacrificing my own life for the good of a generic global vision.

Remember the tidbit from Laurant
Quote:
From the Philippe Perrier interview (Tidbit #?)
“I traveled to Asia. People, over there, attach less importance to the life than us. I attended a funeral, they had burned died it and made small packages of its ashes. Then, they hung these packages with rockets which they sent towards the sky. Here, we have too high opinion of the individual existence. The individual, for me, is not worth anything; he can die of the day at the following day and has importance only as a sample. What counts, be the human one, the universal one. To seize the human one through the individual, that, it is interesting.”




_________________________________________________________
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.
Offline
 Profile WWW  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:19 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 am
Posts: 2503
Location: Colorado
Oh, and about 'watching'....
That's all you can do, really, when you're confronted with dying
and death, at any age, so Johnny's involvement with children at the Hospice could be no other way...uncomfortable, sad, and set
apart. It takes a very special person to be able to do that.
However, there's a difference between watching, a la curiosity,
and witnessing ~ being able to bear witness to things as they are, without trying to interfere. It requires that the person be both grounded and compassionate, yet not feel like they need to 'do' something. It's not passive; it's supportive, in a non-acting, non-doing kind of way. You're just there...as a witness. People may not like to be watched, but they love being witnessed, especially at the end of life. There's a phase of the dying process called 'active dying', when the body is shutting down and 'organizing around departure'. It's very hard to observe, but it's extremely helpful to have someone in the room
at that time, witnessing that. It's amazing how rewarding it is, for everyone.
Johnny is an :angel: for putting himself in that place.



_________________________________________________________
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa
savvy avi by mamabear
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:06 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:43 pm
Posts: 10376
Location: Austin
And ultimately that is what it is about...that human connection. Very interesting observations, ladies! :cool:



_________________________________________________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -
Wow! What a ride!
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:37 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:38 pm
Posts: 1083
Location: Oklahoma
I love to sit on benches - and in wooden rocking chairs (on porches). They're great thinking places.

Last night, I took my children to a professional basketball game. I barely watched the game - I was looking around me all the people. I had the best time! I love noting the expressions on people's faces, seeing how they interact with others, how they carry themselves - it's all so very interesting.

Nice post about witnessing, Parlez.



_________________________________________________________
My eyesight's as good as ever, just so you know. ~CJS
Offline
 Profile YIM 
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:53 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:48 am
Posts: 1337
Location: Beyond the paradigm.
Parlez wrote:
Oh, and about 'watching'....
That's all you can do, really, when you're confronted with dying
and death, at any age, so Johnny's involvement with children at the Hospice could be no other way...uncomfortable, sad, and set
apart. It takes a very special person to be able to do that.
However, there's a difference between watching, a la curiosity,
and witnessing ~ being able to bear witness to things as they are, without trying to interfere. It requires that the person be both grounded and compassionate, yet not feel like they need to 'do' something. It's not passive; it's supportive, in a non-acting, non-doing kind of way. You're just there...as a witness. People may not like to be watched, but they love being witnessed, especially at the end of life. There's a phase of the dying process called 'active dying', when the body is shutting down and 'organizing around departure'. It's very hard to observe, but it's extremely helpful to have someone in the room
at that time, witnessing that. It's amazing how rewarding it is, for everyone.
Johnny is an :angel: for putting himself in that place.


Why is it helpful to be 'witnessing' ?



_________________________________________________________
“The scariest enemy is from within. Allowing yourself to be limited and conform to what you're expected to conform to.”~JD
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:56 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 am
Posts: 2503
Location: Colorado
Why? Because we LIKE you!! :clown:
But, seriously, having someone witness that you were here and you are transforming (to put it delicately) at the time of your death is important. It stabilizes the dying person and helps them move on. I mean, afterall, who wants to die alone? Bedside companions are crucial to facilitate a smooth,
calm transition for the dying person. Family members are not always the best at this, obviously, because they are often (rightfully) preoccupied with grief and wanting their loved one to
stay. So, someone who is okay with the reality of death and who can just be there as a witness is most helpful.



_________________________________________________________
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa
savvy avi by mamabear
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:33 am 
JDZ Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Posts: 12489
Location: The Left Coast
Depputante, thanks for pointing out that page. I have a big “whoa” in margin which I must have noted during my first read.

Antoine wrote:
His selflessness: I offer myself as a human specimen, sacrificing my own life for the good of a generic global vision.


I find this attitude to be very self-aggrandizing, though, which is what bothers me about Antoine.

Parlez wrote:
There's a phase of the dying process called 'active dying', when the body is shutting down and 'organizing around departure'. It's very hard to observe, but it's extremely helpful to have someone in the room
at that time, witnessing that. It's amazing how rewarding it is, for everyone.


Well, this is definitely what Antoine was doing with Mireille. But I find it rather creepy.



_________________________________________________________
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:38 am 
JDZ Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Posts: 12489
Location: The Left Coast
theresa wrote:
Two of my favorite benches are at Petit Jean State Park in Arkansas. One spot is at the top edge (but not TOO close) of a mountain that overlooks a big river and the valley below, and the other is by the lodge in the park. Every evening about half an hour before sunset, people from all over the park gather and sit on benches, glider rocking chairs and big rocks to watch the sun drop behind the mountain. It's a place where you can, all together, be all alone with nature.


What I've noticed during this discussion of benches is that we remember the benches throughout our lives--where they are and what they have meant to us.



_________________________________________________________
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:53 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:48 am
Posts: 1337
Location: Beyond the paradigm.
Parlez wrote:
Why? Because we LIKE you!! :clown:

Gee Thanks! :cloud9:
Quote:
But, seriously, having someone witness that you were here and you are transforming (to put it delicately) at the time of your death is important. It stabilizes the dying person and helps them move on. I mean, afterall, who wants to die alone? Bedside companions are crucial to facilitate a smooth,
calm transition for the dying person. Family members are not always the best at this, obviously, because they are often (rightfully) preoccupied with grief and wanting their loved one to
stay. So, someone who is okay with the reality of death and who can just be there as a witness is most helpful.


Yes, I suppose, that is important, 'witnessing'. It's a new concept for me. I've had very little dying around my life so far.
Is Antoine 'watching' or 'witnessing'? Does he start off doing one, then end up doing the other?



_________________________________________________________
“The scariest enemy is from within. Allowing yourself to be limited and conform to what you're expected to conform to.”~JD
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:23 pm 
JDZ Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Posts: 12489
Location: The Left Coast
Depputante wrote:
Parlez wrote:
But, seriously, having someone witness that you were here and you are transforming (to put it delicately) at the time of your death is important. It stabilizes the dying person and helps them move on. I mean, afterall, who wants to die alone? Bedside companions are crucial to facilitate a smooth,
calm transition for the dying person. Family members are not always the best at this, obviously, because they are often (rightfully) preoccupied with grief and wanting their loved one to
stay. So, someone who is okay with the reality of death and who can just be there as a witness is most helpful.


Yes, I suppose, that is important, 'witnessing'. It's a new concept for me. I've had very little dying around my life so far.
Is Antoine 'watching' or 'witnessing'? Does he start off doing one, then end up doing the other?


The more I think about this concept, the more I understand it. I don't think anyone wants to die alone. And I would think it would be hard for the person dying to see the grief reflected back at her when she is already dealing with her own grief over the situation.



_________________________________________________________
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:36 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 am
Posts: 2503
Location: Colorado
Bingo! There are tons of themes in Happy Days, but, IMO, Antoine's evolution from
watcher to witness is one of them.
:chill:



_________________________________________________________
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa
savvy avi by mamabear
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:15 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:15 pm
Posts: 20501
Location: near Omaha
Liz wrote:
Depputante wrote:
Parlez wrote:
But, seriously, having someone witness that you were here and you are transforming (to put it delicately) at the time of your death is important. It stabilizes the dying person and helps them move on. I mean, afterall, who wants to die alone? Bedside companions are crucial to facilitate a smooth,
calm transition for the dying person. Family members are not always the best at this, obviously, because they are often (rightfully) preoccupied with grief and wanting their loved one to
stay. So, someone who is okay with the reality of death and who can just be there as a witness is most helpful.


Yes, I suppose, that is important, 'witnessing'. It's a new concept for me. I've had very little dying around my life so far.
Is Antoine 'watching' or 'witnessing'? Does he start off doing one, then end up doing the other?


The more I think about this concept, the more I understand it. I don't think anyone wants to die alone. And I would think it would be hard for the person dying to see the grief reflected back at her when she is already dealing with her own grief over the situation.


I spent a day at my sister's bedside as she was dying. I wasn't there on the very last day, but she and all of us knew she was in the process after the defibrillator was turned off on her heart and dialysis was ceased. It was an exhausting day but one of the most beautiful things I have experienced; she and I held hands for hours and there was so much love and acceptance in that touch! As she talked with her children about things they did when her children were small, I saw another beautiful side of her that I had not know before.

I was also in the room when life support was turned off for my mother in law. That, too, was a beautiful experience....she had never wanted to be kept alive by machines, and when it was apparent that she would never recover, her children made the decision to turn it all off. She smiled then, as if she knew we had fulfilled her wishes.

Unfortunately, my daughter died in an emergency room afer a car accident, alone, with no family members around her. There is an incompleteness there for me, a questioning.........what was she thinking, was she frightened? I feel like something was taken from me by not being with her when she passed.

I don't know what all of these experiences mean except that I know the final passage is an important event that should be honored and shared with loved ones......I would not trade those last moments with my sister for anything.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:27 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:43 pm
Posts: 10376
Location: Austin
Parlez, that is a very interesting point about Antoine. Will you remember to come back to that at the end? I think it bears more discussion as we sum it all up.

nebraska, yours is a very touching testament to being there when we can. I too missed the passing of a loved one and wish I could have been there.

To say this is a heavy topic is a huge understatement. Thanks, ladies for all your insights. :cool:

I will be out for a couple days...real life you know. See you in a few!



_________________________________________________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -
Wow! What a ride!
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:01 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:28 pm
Posts: 3907
Location: Florida
Quote:
I spent a day at my sister's bedside as she was dying. I wasn't there on the very last day, but she and all of us knew she was in the process after the defibrillator was turned off on her heart and dialysis was ceased. It was an exhausting day but one of the most beautiful things I have experienced; she and I held hands for hours and there was so much love and acceptance in that touch! As she talked with her children about things they did when her children were small, I saw another beautiful side of her that I had not know before.

I was also in the room when life support was turned off for my mother in law. That, too, was a beautiful experience....she had never wanted to be kept alive by machines, and when it was apparent that she would never recover, her children made the decision to turn it all off. She smiled then, as if she knew we had fulfilled her wishes.

Unfortunately, my daughter died in an emergency room afer a car accident, alone, with no family members around her. There is an incompleteness there for me, a questioning.........what was she thinking, was she frightened? I feel like something was taken from me by not being with her when she passed.

I don't know what all of these experiences mean except that I know the final passage is an important event that should be honored and shared with loved ones......I would not trade those last moments with my sister for anything.


You make a very good point that I really agree with Nebraska. I also lost a love one and was not there and it is somthing that will stay with you always. It is not easy to be present but it at least lets you feel that you did all that you could.



_________________________________________________________
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.
Offline
 Profile WWW  
 
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:15 am 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 am
Posts: 2503
Location: Colorado
You've really had the gamut of death experiences, nebraska ~
Bless your heart!
If it's any comfort to you about your daughter, they say that extreme trauma
releases endorphins in the brain that numb all sensations of
pain and generate an overall feeling of well being.
:lilyrose:



_________________________________________________________
"Belay that! ...Do something else!" ~ Hector Barbossa
savvy avi by mamabear
Offline
 Profile  
 
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 3 of 4 [ 46 posts ]  Go to page
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


phpBB skin developed by: John Olson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group