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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:13 pm 
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Sands wrote:
Wow, this whole FALILV discussion is really opening my eyes up to the differences between Britain/Europe and America in the 60's and 70's, and earlier. Of course we were aware of stuff like the Vietnam war, Watergate and the civil rights movement but for us that stuff was happening somewhere else so I think that era was much less political for many of us here. Yes we cared, but it wasn't our brothers and boyfriends getting drafted, or our black friends fighting for equal rights.

I was watching a film about Dylan last night on TV (No Direction Home by Scorsese) and he talked about his early years, the duck-and-dive drills you people talked about and the sense of impending doom and the threat of the Russians/Commies. That stuff just didn't enter into my childhood, and I'd never really understood how much that stuff must have affected Americans growing up at that time.

Gotta go now. Will post more later


And I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for sharing that perspective, Sands. It seems weird for me to put myself in your place and to have had a different childhood and teenage years in what I consider to be a very similar country, but not--kind of like two parallel universes.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:14 pm 
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Sands wrote:
Wow, this whole FALILV discussion is really opening my eyes up to the differences between Britain/Europe and America in the 60's and 70's, and earlier. Of course we were aware of stuff like the Vietnam war, Watergate and the civil rights movement but for us that stuff was happening somewhere else so I think that era was much less political for many of us here. Yes we cared, but it wasn't our brothers and boyfriends getting drafted, or our black friends fighting for equal rights.

I was watching a film about Dylan last night on TV (No Direction Home by Scorsese) and he talked about his early years, the duck-and-dive drills you people talked about and the sense of impending doom and the threat of the Russians/Commies. That stuff just didn't enter into my childhood, and I'd never really understood how much that stuff must have affected Americans growing up at that time.

Gotta go now. Will post more later


It is interesting, sands because I suppose I never realized that the whole period wasn't so political in the UK. :-O I saw the Dylan film last night too. A big :cool: :cool: for the film.

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QofK wrote: I like that you use the word impression. Like footprints on a beach when the wave recedes. It's a perfect description.

Funny thing about change. I notice this a lot in everyday life around me: Change = Fear. Most people are afraid of change, but I prefer it to stagnancy. I guess that's why I read 3 or 4 books at a time, work on multiple projects and can't sit still unless I'm sleeping. But I notice people around me freaking out when their routine is disturbed.


Thanks QofK. I admit I didn't mean it to fit so well with the wave symbolism. Must have been my subconcious... :eyebrow:

You are right about people and change and I think the older people get the less they are ready to accept it. One thing I intend to watch about myself in years to come.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:18 pm 
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fansmom wrote:
The usual rule here is to try to avoid overtly political statements, but I think it's impossible here.

I was at the peace march in Washington DC last Saturday, and certainly being in the crowd, I felt some of the "sense that whatever we were doing was right." There wasn't a sense of inevitable victory (because there were so many despairing people), or that we felt we would prevail, but there was certainly a sense of momentum. I think that our collective knowledge that the wave broke in the 70's--the feeling that we're fighting the same battles over again--will we ever learn?--made us sorrowful even as we hoped for change.

The crowd at the march was numerically overwhelming: there were times that my friends and I were literally swept along as though by waves. (Incidentally, one of the friends I was with was in San Francisco in the 60's. She's got some stories to tell.)

The wave speech always makes me think of Jim Morrison: "They've got the guns, but we've got the numbers . . ."


And some of the commentaries I am hearing on this are making me feel like there is some resistance to change here. I'm getting The Fear. And now I'm stepping off my :soapbox: before I go past the edge.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:59 pm 
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You all are amazing! I am sick with a cold or some such creeping crud, so trying to keep up with this thread is taxing to what little brain cells I have left today.

I know that keeping our political thoughts and feelings out of our discussions is really hard, and the one wish I have for us is a place were we could get real with some of these discussions, and let down our hair down so to speak. Alot of us were around in the 60's and I would love more views from that era, no matter what side of the political table you sit. I was raised by a very liberal mom, so politics and how it affected us was always discussed openly as were many other subjects.

can we get together some evening in a chat room to discuss Hunter in depth or just the 60's?

just a thought from a pounding head

Raven



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:05 pm 
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Sands and all, so glad you've brought up No Direction Home. There are so many points from that to raise, as people have said, the whole political and social ethos changed, the wave again. More later, when I sort out what I want to say. But Bob Dylan pretty much had hit the spot a few years earlier, hadn't he.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:06 pm 
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Endora wrote:
Sands and all, so glad you've brought up No Direction Home. There are so many points from that to raise, as people have said, the whole political and social ethos changed, the wave again. More later, when I sort out what I want to say. But Bob Dylan pretty much had hit the spot a few years earlier, hadn't he.


Yeah, Dylan caught the the beginning of the wave, didn't he? I have to say I didn't tune into his music till much later in my life. It wasn't what I heard growing up. I didn't discover him till about 15or 20 years ago while delving into all kinds of roots music. Then the :idea: goes on! Oh! This is where it all came from...LOL



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:27 pm 
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JD101 wrote:
Endora wrote:
Sands and all, so glad you've brought up No Direction Home. There are so many points from that to raise, as people have said, the whole political and social ethos changed, the wave again. More later, when I sort out what I want to say. But Bob Dylan pretty much had hit the spot a few years earlier, hadn't he.


Yeah, Dylan caught the the beginning of the wave, didn't he? I have to say I didn't tune into his music till much later in my life. It wasn't what I heard growing up. I didn't discover him till about 15or 20 years ago while delving into all kinds of roots music. Then the :idea: goes on! Oh! This is where it all came from...LOL


I was never into Dylan. So I am totally clueless. But now I am very curious.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:34 pm 
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Raven wrote:
You all are amazing! I am sick with a cold or some such creeping crud, so trying to keep up with this thread is taxing to what little brain cells I have left today.

I know that keeping our political thoughts and feelings out of our discussions is really hard, and the one wish I have for us is a place were we could get real with some of these discussions, and let down our hair down so to speak. Alot of us were around in the 60's and I would love more views from that era, no matter what side of the political table you sit. I was raised by a very liberal mom, so politics and how it affected us was always discussed openly as were many other subjects.

can we get together some evening in a chat room to discuss Hunter in depth or just the 60's?

just a thought from a pounding head

Raven


Raven, sorry you are under the weather. I feel a little tired and rundown myself--but not sick yet.

I would be interested in the chat you are suggesting. I'll PM you about it.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:37 pm 
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Not sure if this is really on topic but we seem to have drifted in that direction and I do think it connects. I just watched the second half of No Direction Home and I feel almost in shock, just overwhelmed with sadness, and I need to share.

Watching the young Dylan last night was so inspiring, so much enthusiasm and belief in himself and so open to the possibilities of the world. But just a few years later it was horrible to see what the world had done to him. He looked totally worn out, bruised and battered, like the world had just sucked him dry, chewed him up, spat him out and ground him into the dirt. I found myself asking 'Is that really what we do to people with extraordinary vision and talent?' 'Is that actually what the world does to all of us?' (I certainly feel that way sometimes) And if it can do that to someone with the strength of mind and focus that Dylan has, what chance do the rest of us stand?'

Yes I know he survived that and came out strong, and it was really good to see him as he is now, looking so well. But even so it's left me feeling really sad. And for me it relates very much to FALILV and particularly the wave speech. I guess when a wave breaks and crashes it can really beat you up. And it definitely relates to that idea of people resisting change, because that was a lot of what happened to Dylan.

Sorry if I'm not very articulate, but I'm writing this as I'm feeling it, I haven't had chance to think it through yet.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:39 pm 
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Raven wrote:
You all are amazing! I am sick with a cold or some such creeping crud, so trying to keep up with this thread is taxing to what little brain cells I have left today.

I know that keeping our political thoughts and feelings out of our discussions is really hard, and the one wish I have for us is a place were we could get real with some of these discussions, and let down our hair down so to speak. Alot of us were around in the 60's and I would love more views from that era, no matter what side of the political table you sit. I was raised by a very liberal mom, so politics and how it affected us was always discussed openly as were many other subjects.

can we get together some evening in a chat room to discuss Hunter in depth or just the 60's?

just a thought from a pounding head

Raven


Raven, we just try and keep personal politics off the boards since we are not a political forum and out of respect to all viewpoints. Let's face it, political discussions can get a bit hairy. A discussion of the politics of the time, etc. I don't see as a problem. If you would like to set something up privately and have a 60's get together (would that be a happening? :-O ) then go for it!



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:57 pm 
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DeppInTheHeartOfTexas wrote:
Raven wrote:
have a 60's get together (would that be a happening?)


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:09 pm 
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JD101 wrote:
DeppInTheHeartOfTexas wrote:
Raven wrote:
have a 60's get together (would that be a happening?)


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:


Now I have that stupid song stuck in my head.... :banghead:



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:12 pm 
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Sands wrote:
Not sure if this is really on topic but we seem to have drifted in that direction and I do think it connects. I just watched the second half of No Direction Home and I feel almost in shock, just overwhelmed with sadness, and I need to share.

Watching the young Dylan last night was so inspiring, so much enthusiasm and belief in himself and so open to the possibilities of the world. But just a few years later it was horrible to see what the world had done to him. He looked totally worn out, bruised and battered, like the world had just sucked him dry, chewed him up, spat him out and ground him into the dirt. I found myself asking 'Is that really what we do to people with extraordinary vision and talent?' 'Is that actually what the world does to all of us?' (I certainly feel that way sometimes) And if it can do that to someone with the strength of mind and focus that Dylan has, what chance do the rest of us stand?'

Yes I know he survived that and came out strong, and it was really good to see him as he is now, looking so well. But even so it's left me feeling really sad. And for me it relates very much to FALILV and particularly the wave speech. I guess when a wave breaks and crashes it can really beat you up. And it definitely relates to that idea of people resisting change, because that was a lot of what happened to Dylan.

Sorry if I'm not very articulate, but I'm writing this as I'm feeling it, I haven't had chance to think it through yet.


As I said earlier, I don't know much about Dylan, but now I REALLY want to know.

And Sands, you are always articulate.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:03 pm 
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Liz wrote:
And Sands, you are always articulate


Thanks Liz. Just been thinking about it a bit more and it's given me a slightly different perspective on the whole 60's 'wave' actually. The thing is that everyone wanted to see Dylan as a part of that wave, 'spokesman of a generation' 'voice of today's youth' and all that and he was really uncomfortable with it. He just wanted to be himself and voice his own thoughts. But because people had forced that role on him, when he broke away from the whole folk scene and 'protest songs' to do his own thing people got really nasty with him and said he'd betrayed them, called him 'Judas' and stuff. As if they owned him. I actually remember my brother going to see him on that tour (1965 I think), when he first played electric, and coming home quite shaken at the animosity of the audience.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that this 'progressive' 60's generation were actually holding him back and trying to stop him from progressing, because it didn't fit in with their rigid idea of progression. So not only did he have to fight the 'old establishment' but also the 'new establishment' which was supposed to be fighting for freedom but had actually just built a different prison.

And I think to some extent that happened with the whole 60's scene. It wasn't just destroyed by outside forces but also from within. It's unwritten rules became as rigid as the ones it was supposed to be replacing. Questioning the accepted new 'radical' views on war, sex, feminism, the environment or whatever was just as taboo as questioning the traditional views had been. I remember this well and I found it very disturbing. I still do actually, because I can still see it all around me.

My intention has always been to open MORE doors, not to open one door and at the same time close another. That way the possibilities available to us might change but they never actually increase.

So maybe when something becomes a recognisable 'wave' it needs to break in order for real change to keep happening. Because once everyone's just riding the wave instead of swimming for themselves you've just got another status quo. Dylan was brave enough to swim against the tide and so was Hunter, and maybe that kind of individual bravery is worth a million people just riding the wave.

Sorry to rant, but this has really got my brain buzzing.

EDIT: Of course Johnny is another of those brave souls prepared to swim against the tide



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:28 pm 
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Sands wrote:
So maybe when something becomes a recognisable 'wave' it needs to break in order for real change to keep happening. Because once everyone's just riding the wave instead of swimming for themselves you've just got another status quo. Dylan was brave enough to swim against the tide and so was Hunter, and maybe that kind of individual bravery is worth a million people just riding the wave.

Sorry to rant, but this has really got my brain buzzing.

EDIT: Of course Johnny is another of those brave souls prepared to swim against the tide


I can feel those brainwaves through cyberspace, Sands. And you took the words right out of my mouth (re: Johnny)--maybe not the exact words because you are more articulate than I.

I thought of another bandwagon that everyone got on and rammed down our throats--feminism. I always felt the pressure to conform to the new ideals of feminism. Don't get me wrong. I am in total support of feminism. But I didn't fit into the mold anymore when I left my career to raise my kids. I always felt that feminism was about being an individual and having the right to pursue my own dreams--which may or may not be a high-powered career. I feel I am pursuing exactly what I want to pursue and feel very fortunate that I can do so.



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