MAJOR SPOILERS!!! Libertine Comparisons play v. film

by Stephen Jeffreys

Moderator: Liz

User avatar
luvdepp
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:52 am
Location: California

Status: Offline

Unread postby luvdepp » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:19 pm

Thanks so much for posting that Fan. It does clarify some things for me and sparked my memories of others that I had forgotten. I need to see that film again! You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into this project and did a fantastic job! :cool:
"So we shall let the reader answer this question for himself, who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on the shore and merely existed." ~HST~

User avatar
QueenofKings
Posts: 7732
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:36 pm
Location: Edge City On the Road

Status: Offline

Unread postby QueenofKings » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:33 pm

Liz wrote:
FANtasticJD wrote:
Liz wrote:QofK, are you going to the print icon at the top of the page or just hitting print on your computer? If you just hit print on your computer, the right side is usually cut off.

Liz, where is the print icon on JDZ? I'm sure it's right in front of my nose but I don't see it.

Thanks!

Never mind, I found it! Yup, right in front of me! :blush:


I had a hard time finding it myself at first.

Edit: And I should have been clearer for those others who don't see it -- It is to the right of the reply button under the subject heading of the thread.


Thanks, I couldn't find that icon!
But I was able to print it by editing it in MS Word and printing it landscape instead.
I haven't read it all yet, but thank you, FANtasticJD for noting all of the comparisons.

User avatar
moonlightmj
Posts: 289
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:02 pm
Location: Brazil

Status: Offline

Unread postby moonlightmj » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:37 pm

FANtasticJD, wonderful work you made! I am impressed! I still did not see the movie (I will wait for the dvd), but I read everything. I never had doubts, this is a great movie! Thank you so much for so many informations!
"...freedom is a universe of possibility" Shantaram - Gregory David Roberts

User avatar
Jackslady
Posts: 3849
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:17 pm
Location: The Captain's Cabin

Status: Offline

Unread postby Jackslady » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:50 pm

FanJD, thank you so much for giving us these invaluable insights, your thoughts are much appreciated!

It is incredibly frustrating not to have seen the WiP, given that all these scenes will most likely never be seen again, particularly when they obviously showcase some marvellous acting, but there we go. Perhaps the DVD release may include some deleted scenes, but I'm not holding my breath.

May I ask you, were the "shagging" scenes re the Dr Bendo section very graphic? I'm not looking for explicit description here, I just wondered if they came across as too strong to be included, given the earl's illness? The biographies I've read don't seem to suggest any evidence that "Dr Bendo" was known to have taken advantage of his patients in the sexual sense...I somehow doubt that this happened in reality - Rochester was seriously ill by this point and it is known he suffered from impotence. I'm not saying the scenes shouldn't have been included by the way, I agree with your point that in the final cut the DB scenes are confusing and for anyone who knows nothing about Rochester, would make no sense whatsoever - a shame because Johnny's acting in the scenes with Jane and the King is quite wonderful.
"Easy on the goods darlin!"
"Tis not an easy thing to be entirely happy, but to be kind is very easy, and that is the greatest measure of happiness"-John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester

*Special thanks to es for help with my lovely avatar*

User avatar
gilly
Posts: 6552
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:14 pm
Location: australia

Status: Offline

Unread postby gilly » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:56 pm

I couldn't resist so I read everything.. :blush: WOW..Very comprehensive FAN :cloud9: ..You must have spent hours analysing this. [I think you should send this to the producers]..they would be impressed,though I know that's not why you did it..You're love for this film shines through... :cool:
Life is beautiful.

I have faith in you.

User avatar
DeppInTheHeartOfTexas
Posts: 10378
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: Austin

Status: Offline

Unread postby DeppInTheHeartOfTexas » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:05 pm

FAN, thank you so much! I printed out the copy and will keep it with my book so I can read it again before and after I see the movie again. I agree with those that are hoping either for a director's cut or at least some deleted scenes. I wish I could have seen the WIP! A few observations from my memory that is getting a bit foggy from LA.

Wilmot's mother:
I was quite surprised to see her in the film since she does not appear in person in the play. I thought that scene was very powerful but I felt I was missing something. It appears I was!

Wilmot's children by Malet:
I am surprised they cut the son from the deathbed scene! Those scenes are already so powerful - I think that may have done me in completely but I wish it had been kept! What another side to him it would have shown.

Chaplain and Bishop:
It sounds as though this was brought out more in the WIP. I thought in the final cut it was not as meaningful if you didn't know the background.

Relationship with Malet:
I wonder why they cut her scenes so much? From what we saw in the final version, I thought she was very good and her character was a good contrast to EB but I don't remember getting the feeling that Rochester had much feeling for her except at the beginning and the end.

Wilmot & Charles II:
I was disappointed that the letters scene was left out and I agree that left many things unexplained. I was also disappointed that the destruction of the sundial scene was not included. It was so powerful in the play!

Country Rustication
I remember still pictures from these scenes. I wish we had seen this section. I agree it would have given a different dimension to JW to see him in his country element.

Death of Billy Downs:
This to me was a very difficult scene to understand if you have not read the play. I still don't remember the alehouse scene (chalk that up to the time of night!) but I would imagine they substituted that for attending the races as in the play. The scene goes by much too fast to really understand what happened BUT I must say that it is still very powerful because of the way that Johnny plays it. It is chilling, really.

Dr. Bendo:
This was confusing and obvioulsy shortened. More explanation was needed and unless you know about mercury baths I'm not sure why that scene was left in. From what you say the shock of his physical state at that time was less effective because of what was cut and I can see that.

House of Lords:
What a powerful scene! Amazing! I think it was an improvement on the play. Plus it has the added credibility of being his actual speech. It also speaks to the line in the play when Charles tells Rochester, "it's fun to be against things, but there comes a time when you have to start being for things as well. (and later in the scene... Don't jolly me, Johnny. It's time to grow up." It seemed to be a moment when Rochester did indeed grow up and rise to his potential.


Fan wrote: LIBERTINE: PLAY V. FILM - GENERAL COMMENTS:
Most of the rest of the film is very close to the play, often word for word. The impact of seeing and hearing it so well acted made it much more alive for me than when I first read the play. The nuances and, especially, the humor were made vivid and real. The play, for example, on Alcock’s name was hilarious. Most fascinating was seeing how Johnny brought Wilmot to life, making him a natural center of all attention and a focal point, even when ill or out of favor. He brought his usual humor to the role. More impressive was the strength and forcefulness he portrayed. This was no soft-spoken gentle soul but a tortured and egotistic, often loud-mouthed hedonist.


YES! YES! YES! Hearing the words made it really come to life. As you say it is easier to see all the little nuances and humor through the facial expressions, tone of voice and the other characters reactions to him.

Fan wrote: This all did not lessen the growing feeling we had for the character, the caring what happened to him despite himself. Johnny brought out his torment and humanity with compelling clarity while never blunting the uglier parts of his character. Seeing his physical deterioration heightened the sense of his courageousness and ego in seeing him keep on going. He didn't try to hide any of it from those close to him.


Would you send this part to all the Academy voters please? How is it possible to see this character in all his wretchedness and still cry for him? Because of Johnny’s portrayal!


Sorry to ramble on here but I loved reading this FAN! I only wish I didn’t have to wait who knows how long to see it again.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -
Wow! What a ride!

User avatar
Liz
ONBC Moderator
Posts: 12971
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:13 pm
Location: The Left Coast

Status: Offline

Unread postby Liz » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:38 pm

Fan wrote: This all did not lessen the growing feeling we had for the character, the caring what happened to him despite himself. Johnny brought out his torment and humanity with compelling clarity while never blunting the uglier parts of his character. Seeing his physical deterioration heightened the sense of his courageousness and ego in seeing him keep on going. He didn't try to hide any of it from those close to him.


DITHOT wrote: Would you send this part to all the Academy voters please? How is it possible to see this character in all his wretchedness and still cry for him? Because of Johnny’s portrayal!


That is it! What is wrong with these critics, these voters? Having read the book--actually 3 books--and understanding the character of John Wilmot the way I think I do, I think that Johnny Depp's portrayal is right on--despite the cutting of certain scenes of explanation.

OK, I must share with you what my local indie theater owner shared with me a couple of days ago. He said that his friend had seen TL at the Toronto Film Festival and said he liked it. However, he said that he didn't think Johnny Depp fans would like it. Of course, I laughed almost hysterically over that and, of course, I set him straight on that one. But we both agreed that those who were expecting Captain Jack or Willy Wonka, just weren't going to be disappointed.
You can't judge a book by its cover.

The only thing that matters is the ending. It's the most important part of the story.

User avatar
Boo-Radley
Posts: 5358
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:53 am
Location: Missouri, USA

Status: Offline

Unread postby Boo-Radley » Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:07 am

Thank you so much FAN, I really enjoyed reading this. I'm disappointed that a few of the scenes that I really was looking forward to seeing from the play didn't make it into the final and the some other scenes were mangled a bit, but overall I'm still breathlessly awaiting this film. Here's to the hope that the missing scenes will be included on the DVD. Thanks again :bouquet:


Live in Depp
Boo
"With this hand I will cup your.... Oh goodness no!"~~Victor Van Dort

"The theater is my drug, and my illness is so far advanced that my physic must be of the highest quality."~~John Wilmot

User avatar
suec
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:57 pm
Location: uk

Status: Offline

Unread postby suec » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:02 am

Thanks FAN for this comparison. I have seen the film only twice and forgotten a lot. I am very much looking forward to seeing it again and again on DVD. I do think that some parts were an improvement on the play, such as his speech. Johnny's performance took my breath away and knowing that it was Rochester's speech added so much more. When I saw the film, I didn't think about how it would impact on those who hadn't read the play. I guess I was so immersed in it all by then that I took a lot for granted. But thinking about it, I can see that parts might be a bit of a puzzle. So much more could have been made of the Dr Bendo scene, for instance, because he did pull off this extraordinary feat. The Downs scene did come as a shock to me, because I had seen that as an act of drunken stupidity and that he might not have even reliased what had happened to Downs. But the film gave a different interpretation, and the reveal in the alehouse scene, with the hair and how that showed in the Downs scene, was stunning. It brought up right up to date, a more universal figure.
I love this analysis and will save it to refer back to. :cool:
"Luck... inspiration... both only really happen to you when you empty your heart of ambition, purpose, and plan; when you give yourself, completely, to the golden, fate-filled moment."

User avatar
KYwoman
Posts: 5958
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:26 pm
Location: Kentucky (KY); birthplace of Johnny Depp and Hunter S Thompson

Status: Offline

Unread postby KYwoman » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:14 am

:thanks: Thanks FAN! Excellent job and well thought out. I appreciate the insights you gave into the various formats of this material. I anxiously await seeing TL again!! I've printed this out for future reference!
"Buy the ticket, take the ride." :motorcycle:

User avatar
deppenpointe
Posts: 1032
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 8:43 pm
Location: in a bucket of drool
Contact:

Status: Offline

Unread postby deppenpointe » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:44 pm

Wow! How many times have you watched this film? It's a great handy write-up! I've always wondered what scenes were cut and never filmed, and it's rather sad to hear that the impact of the film was sort of mitigated in the cut version. However, there's always the DVD and the deleted scenes! Thanks for all the hard work. It's such an informative read and you offer some insights that I've never thought of before. Very cool! Thanks!

User avatar
shadowydog
Posts: 89520
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:47 pm

Status: Offline

Unread postby shadowydog » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:59 pm

Hey I just found this thread. I have not read or seen the play. I did see the final cut version twice and did a great deal of research on the real Earl and read the movie reviews.

Based on this - a couple of thoughts. A number of reviewers commented on the lack of background on the Earl. His war exploits and the effect on him; the early relationship with his father and the king; the relationship between the Earl and his wife and children; his wit, biting satire in his writings, and humor and ability to charm those at court. I agree with this. It would have added a great deal of depth to the character of Rochester.

Also someone in this thread spoke of Dr. Bendo having sex with patients while sick with vd. The bios I read state that he did, in fact travel the country as "Dr Bendo" passing himself off as a fertility specialist. In this guise, he "cured" the females by having sex with them. Whether this was before or after he came down with the disease, was not clear. But I did read that he had sex with males and females after he, in fact knew, he had syphilis.

I don't know if this adds anything to those who have not yet seen the movie. I hope we get an extended director's cut with some of the deleted scenes restored rather than as just "deleted scenes" Hope I get to see this remarkable film yet again in the theater and also on DVD.

User avatar
DeppInTheHeartOfTexas
Posts: 10378
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: Austin

Status: Offline

Unread postby DeppInTheHeartOfTexas » Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:09 pm

shadowydog, I couldn't agree more about the dvd version. After reading what we didn't see in the final version I am really hoping some of it will be restored in a Director's Cut version of some sort. I also hope to see the documentary that was made on the making of the movie. At least it looks hopeful that a few more cities will get the chance to see it in theaters in March! :cool:
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -

Wow! What a ride!

tina_als_girl
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:06 pm
Location: Kansas City, Missouri, USA

Status: Offline

Unread postby tina_als_girl » Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:27 pm

Wow. That was a fantastic analysis. Thanks for that!

I'm now crossing my fingers for an Unrated Director's Cut DVD.

Joy
Everything in this *room* is eatable. Even *I'm* eatable. But that is called cannibalism, my dear children, and is, in fact, frowned upon in most societies.

User avatar
Aeris
Posts: 203
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: Down Under
Contact:

Status: Offline

Unread postby Aeris » Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:48 pm

Wow thanks for the wonderful analysis! And thank you for taking the time and effort to do so ^^


Return to “The Libertine”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest